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Chronic Acne

Posted by Robert on September 24, 1999 at 03:49:10:

I have gone through the archives. I just received Dr. Benson's Book "The Relaxation Response" and Davis' "The Relaxation and Stress Reductuction Workbook". Throughout the book, both authors talk about chronic stress and diseases. I saw a big list of many chronic diseases but never saw acne mentioned in any of the books. I was hoping these books would give scientific data of why Acne can be considered a Chronic Disease curable with SR. I have searched for SR on the internet and they also talk about chronic diseases (ex. high blood pressure etc.), but again I never saw them mention anything about acne related to stress. Can you please give an explanation of why you think acne is curable by SR. Who or where did you see mentioned that acne is such a chronic disease.

IF SR IS SO EFFECTIVE WITH ACNE, THEN WHY DON'T THE AUTHORS OF THESE BOOKS ALSO MENTION IT AS A CHRONIC DISEASE CAUSE BY STRESS???

Robert



Re: how Dare you question Dr. Stoll in ALL CAPS!

Posted by The Wrathful UUG on September 24, 1999 at 07:21:56:

In Reply to: Chronic Acne posted by Robert on September 24, 1999 at 03:49:10:

The simple answer to your question is that not all authors know everything that Dr. Stll does, from his experience. (nor does he know everything that everyone else does.)

I've personally run into this trap myself, thinking that something that one person says ought to show up in ALL the relevant books if he's right. Turns out that there are Pioneers (How do you tell a Pioneer-He's the one with the arrows in his back!), and Dr. Stoll is one of them. Ever notice how much "new" stuff is in books published the last 5 years that was never in books before. The collected knowledge is expanding at an amazing rate (even though some of it is WRONG!). And quick/free communications such as this discussion board help share the knowledge and experiences of many people all around the world widely.

Remember the three stages of reaction to a new idea, concept, or treatment:

Ignore it (since it does not show up in all the references).
Ridicule it (this guy/gal must be Nuts!).
Say that it was obviously true all the time.



It was a valid question

Posted by Kari on September 24, 1999 at 08:05:06:

In Reply to: Re: how Dare you question Dr. Stoll in ALL CAPS! posted by The Wrathful UUG on September 24, 1999 at 07:21:56:

He didn't call Dr. Stoll any names and wasn't being disrespectful. If you don't have acne, you can't understand how it feels to have it (frustration). Dr. Stoll can take care of himself, quite well actually



Re: how Dare you question Dr. Stoll in ALL CAPS!

Posted by Robert on September 24, 1999 at 11:43:40:

In Reply to: Re: how Dare you question Dr. Stoll in ALL CAPS! posted by The Wrathful UUG on September 24, 1999 at 07:21:56:

Think and research before you speak. When I asked Dr. Stoll why SR cures acne, HE REFERED ME TO THOSE BOOKS AND SOME OTHER "MIND AS A SLAYER/HEALER" TO GET THE SCIENTIFIC DATA!!!!!!! I'm not a MD, so I was looking for straight answer. Dr. Benson's book did a good job on explaining hypertension and other chronic disease caused by stress and gave good scientific explainations of why these diseases happened due to stress. If testimonials and no scientific data is all Dr. Stoll has, then testimonials is good enough for me. He said "acne is one of those Chronic Diseases". I asked in CAPS, because that is one of the main questions or points of my posting I wanted to get a reply to.
Alternative Practitioners are pioneers. If you accidentally chop your leg off, and Dr. Stoll thinks SR will make a new one grow back, would you do SR? SR is not the answer to everything. People who do SR are not perfect. If he is a pioneer and is the first person to say that SR is the cure for ACNE, then it's a little hard to believe. There has to be more agreement between these practitioners. I don't think Dr. Stoll would be the only person in this planet to come out with the Idea that chronic acne is caused by stress. I was hoping that someone more credible (no offense Dr. Stoll) like a professor from a top University would support the idea.

--Robert



Galilei and Semmelweiss, and top professors

Posted by
Karel on September 24, 1999 at 14:47:12:

In Reply to: Re: how Dare you question Dr. Stoll in ALL CAPS! posted by Robert on September 24, 1999 at 11:43:40:

Hi Robert,
I am just thinking of all the past discoveries in the way you described. Imagine Galileo Galilei saying the earth is not flat, but round - and everybody against it, including the church, best professors of those times. And - the earth is round in spite of this.
Imagine dr. Semmelweiss who spoke to his colleagues in the last century saying they should wash their hands before doing operation. No great professor from a top university of that time agreed with him. Many people died because of bad hygienic conditions and doctors not washing their hands. Dr. Semmelweiss was put into a "mental hospital" for the rest of his life (although having a healthy brain!). Now it is a routine to be strictly hygienic at operations. Etc. etc.
Once, when I was a small child, I believed that people with university education know everything. Having university myself I know many people on the same level of education are worse educated than some people without university education. So, why should a top professor know more of everything than a doctor?
Be well,
Karel



Re: Galilei and Semmelweiss, and top professors

Posted by Robert on September 24, 1999 at 17:45:19:

In Reply to: Galilei and Semmelweiss, and top professors posted by Karel on September 24, 1999 at 14:47:12:

You were almost there, but you missed the whole point. Dr. Stoll can be the smartest person on earth for what i care. A harvard professor or some top university professor has a greater reputation to defend. He cannot make comments and suggesting out of the blues just because he/she thinks it works. When such a professor makes a comment, many people will very picky. The so called "quacks" say that stress is not a cause for acne. Infact, they say the the underlying causes of acne is unknown. If Dr. Benson comes in and says acne is caused by stress, he will have to face all these quacks and give a good explanation of why stress causes acne. Dr. Benson gives a good explanation for hypertension, I'm wondering why he doesn't mention acne in his whole book. Maybe i'm missing a connection, or something that indirectly says that Stress causes acne in his book.

Robert



Re: Galilei and Semmelweiss, and top professors

Posted by Robert on September 24, 1999 at 17:55:08:

In Reply to: Galilei and Semmelweiss, and top professors posted by Karel on September 24, 1999 at 14:47:12:

To answer your question about Galileo and whatever that other superman's name is. YOU SHOULD LOOK AT BOTH SIDES. Imagine how many people have ideas. What is the ratio of people being right and people being wrong. There is more failure than success in the world of Pioneers. Those are not good odds. I don't see doctor stoll as a pioneer, he has just simply acquired the techniques of the eastern world and has become a practitioner of them. But he says that the cure for acne is to take the pressure (stress) off the hypothalamus, hhhmmmm, and I have not seen other people (who are more credible, like someone who has a big reputation), I start to wonder if this is Dr. Stoll's idea. If it was his idea, then why did he refer me to these books to get scientific data that the above is the cure for acne. If all he has to support his idea is "Seeing is believing", then that is almost as good for me. Seeing high precentage results, even with no scientific data is just as good for me. But like I said, why was i refered to these books, and they mention nothing about acne being treated with SR????

Robert



Re: how Dare you question Dr. Stoll in ALL CAPS! (ARCHIVE under acne and stress.)

Posted by Walt Stoll on September 25, 1999 at 09:30:57:

In Reply to: Re: how Dare you question Dr. Stoll in ALL CAPS! posted by Robert on September 24, 1999 at 11:43:40:

Robert,

I hope you will get into the habit of thinking for yourself in addition to doing research about what other people think.

First, have you ever wondered why acne is so prevalent during puberty? No? Well it is time you did. What are the main metabolic things that happen with puberty? HORMONAL!

The reasons I recommended the references that I did, about the relationships of stress and SR in chronic diseases, is so you would better understand the process.

Have you ever wondered why some women only have acne with pregnancy and why some only get rid of their acne with pregnancy? Well it is time you did. What are the major metabolic changes for the mother during pregnancy? HORMONAL!

Why would anyone have acne post puberty? Think about it. What do I possibly have to gain by telling people this stuff? I make no money from it. If I am wrong, all I can do is make a fool of myself. If I am right, eventually people's experience will prove it and NOT by anything I have to say.

ANYTHING that upsets the hormonal balance in the body has the potential of producing acne. BY FAR the most commonn cause of this in this culture is chronic stress-effect storage in the hypothalamus. Even if this were not the primary cause, the SR would still help because it it the total burdens on the hypothalamus that finally does it in.

If you need to see the original research about this, you will need to become a student of Dr Selye's work over the past half century. I have been trying to spare you that. If we are not aware of the other causes we still can greatly reduce the total hypothalamic burden with what we DO know by practicing SR and seeing how much good it does.

Of course, in the end, the only proof of the pudding is in the eating. Since the diligent practice of SR for 6 months will ALWAYS produce many positive effects in ANYONE who does it, even if the acne was not changed, anyone would be happy that they did it. What does anyone have to lose???

My job is opening doors. Anything else is "over and above the call of what I see as MY duty".

If you continue putting this much effort into learning, you will eventually understand this as well as I do. The best teacher I have ever seen is personal experience. All of the docs I have met, who practice advanced medicine, have had that personal experience. Then, YOU can write the pioneering book! Let us know when you do.

Walt



Re: Galilei and Semmelweiss, and top professors

Posted by
Karel on September 25, 1999 at 11:03:21:

In Reply to: Re: Galilei and Semmelweiss, and top professors posted by Robert on September 24, 1999 at 17:55:08:

Hi Robert,
I did not yet read dr. Benson's book so I cannot comment whether he explains the acne-liver-gut-hypothalamus-stress connection or not. I just know this connection is valid - from some cases I know, from this board etc. Maybe Walt would be able to give you many examples of SR working for acne - he's got enough experience not to say things without knowing they work.
To the reputation of the professors. Well, you have some point, but: consider why these top medical professors have reputation - this may be because they are good at healing, or - which may be also probable with most of them - because they are best at representing the mainstream dogmas, which may be helping and not really healing. They are top professors because there are most mainstreamers (symptom supressing medicine people) and it is these mainstreamers who raise these people to the top. So I would always watch it in a broader context of WHO IS WHO and what is the structure of people who have influence on declaring someone a top professor. There are SO MANY examples of these TOP professor saying just what you wrote in your second note - that the not absolutely verified things DO NOT EXIST. This is really no science! Can you trust someone saying "IT DOES NOT EXIST" for something he just "DOES NOT KNOW WHETHER IT EXISTS"? I cannot. And, the point with Galilei, Semmelweiss and the others was not only with their being pioneers, but also with their being IN MINORITY.
Be well,
Karel



Re: Galilei and Semmelweiss, and top professors (Archive under philosophy.)

Posted by Walt Stoll on September 26, 1999 at 09:12:21:

In Reply to: Re: Galilei and Semmelweiss, and top professors posted by Karel on September 25, 1999 at 11:03:21:

Thanks, Karel.

These are not comfortable thoughts for mainstream people but they are absolutely necessary if we are to get out of the terrible "health-care crisis" we are in. Of course, I insist that it is not a health-care crisis at all but a "disease-care crisis".

Until people start thinking like that, there is little progress that will be made until things get even worse. This is why I wrote my book the way I did: people need to have a personal experience to start doubting their comfortable paradigms.

Walt



your book should be read by as many people as possible

Posted by
Karel on September 26, 1999 at 19:46:25:

In Reply to: Re: Galilei and Semmelweiss, and top professors (Archive under philosophy.) posted by Walt Stoll on September 26, 1999 at 09:12:21:

Hi Walt,
The story about doctor Semmelweiss is popular. I have found it in your book and independently, in a Czech immunologist's book on immunity.
Although I already knew the mainstream paradigm is not working with many chronic diseases, I never thought of the money question. So your book opened my eyes in this. Before reading that I thought they are just not willing to learn or that they do not want to accept what they were not taught at the universities. Now I see it also as the question of money, thanks to your book, and it really often fits.
Be well,
Karel



Re: your book should be read by as many people as possible

Posted by Walt Stoll on September 27, 1999 at 08:07:04:

In Reply to: your book should be read by as many people as possible posted by Karel on September 26, 1999 at 19:46:25:

Thanks, Karel.

The references in the back of my book like "Health at the Crossroads" and "Pigs in the Dirt", by Dr Black, explain it much more fully than I did (for wanting to keep my book very short and sweet).

HOWEVER, you have hit on the main reason I wrote my book: The biggest cause of the "Disease-Care Crisis" IS the monopoly that exists that is still trying to "force the health-care camel though the eye of the allopathic needle". The examples of stuff people can do for common problems is just a way of giving the reader a personal example that they cannot deny. Personal experience is, in my experience, the most important thing when it comes to people changing their paradigm.

Namaste`

Walt



I am in process of reading the book and I can't find ANY passages on acne

Posted by Kari on September 27, 1999 at 09:59:48:

In Reply to: Re: your book should be read by as many people as possible posted by Walt Stoll on September 27, 1999 at 08:07:04:

It's interesing, but I'm not worried abount hiatus hernia and inflammatory bowel.



Re: I am in process of reading the book and I can't find ANY passages on acne

Posted by
Karel on September 27, 1999 at 13:00:20:

In Reply to: I am in process of reading the book and I can't find ANY passages on acne posted by Kari on September 27, 1999 at 09:59:48:

Hi Kari,
I do not want to respond down the BB, so I put it here. You touched your feeling of being volatile in moods - well, this is what I see much different than the mainstream psychologists - they would look for some causes in behaviour or childhood, whereas I believe (and we are all volatile to a certain degree - although differently) the main thing with this is our brains being allergic to some stuff in what we eat or what we inhale. I never forget the example of a really sick man described in Brain Allergies, who was a "psychotic" claiming to be Jesus Christ. After the doctor discovered the cause (and it was the gases from cars - the man was once a truck driver if I remember well), separated him from any adverse gases, he slowly recovered and stayed healthy.
--
As to the acne, I am trying to convince my sister (having acne) to do SR and the E-diet and eat according to her metabolic type, but she is not yet willing to do it. She still tries to solve her leaky gut with supplements and herbs. She just knows some foods that make her very sensitive and cause her face to get worse, so she does not eat them. I am curious if she will be able to handle it without the SR (she says she has no time to do it - being a university student.). As her brother, I will try to do what I can to help her to get rid of it so I may become an expert on acne soon :-)). Surely there are more ways out.
Karel



Has this worked on anyone else you know?

Posted by Kari on September 28, 1999 at 11:18:29:

In Reply to: Re: I am in process of reading the book and I can't find ANY passages on acne posted by Karel on September 27, 1999 at 13:00:20:

Your sister should do it now--she'll never have more time to do it than in college--shoot I used to take naps A LOT in college. Oh well--how the heck can you figure out what foods are causing what when you do the elimination diet? Three days after you eat this, you get 2 zits so on and so forth? How many days after you eat something are you supposed to break out? Sounds impossible to me. I know you'll be able to illuminate the subject for me though.



Re: I am in process of reading the book and I can't find ANY passages on acne (ARCHIVE UNDER PHILOSOPHY.)

Posted by Walt Stoll on September 28, 1999 at 11:40:10:

In Reply to: I am in process of reading the book and I can't find ANY passages on acne posted by Kari on September 27, 1999 at 09:59:48:

Kari,

There is also no chapter about headaches (Although I have regretted not putting one in since the book was published.

The book is designed to get the reader thinking in a different way so they can address whatever ails them that is a chronic condition. ALL chronic conditions will be benefitted by the same basic approach which IS fully described in the book. Acne IS a classic chronic condition.

If one just looks up their particular ailment in the book, without reading the entire book, it is unlikely that they will get the whole point of the book.

If I wrote everything I know in a book it would be more than 2000 pages long and cost at least $150 and THEN, who would read it?

ALL chronic conditions require a different way of thinking than has been promoted by our conventional medical paradigm.

Walt



Tracing your allergens

Posted by
Karel on September 28, 1999 at 12:24:26:

In Reply to: Has this worked on anyone else you know? posted by Kari on September 28, 1999 at 11:18:29:

My sister is a kind of perfectionist - she must get the best results, her exams must have a perfect outcome. That is why she has too little time, at least she thinks so. Anyway, she found out it is worse (her skin problems) when eating anything spicy or sour. It is no wonder with the spices as they support inflammation (I read there was a study on this). But I would like to let her start with SR and come through the E-diet (doing it myself now, but it is easy for me having no more serious problems). The most important about the elimination diet is that cutting your body off all your potential allergens makes you feel much much more sensible to them. Then, after 6 days on E-diet foods, with reintroducing/testing the other foods you will clearly see whether this or that food IS an allergen for you or not.
Best regards,
Karel
P.S. Various allergens have different time space between exposure and reaction. With some (like wheat), this may be up to 4 days or even more.



That's what I mean--

Posted by Kari on September 28, 1999 at 12:48:06:

In Reply to: Tracing your allergens posted by Karel on September 28, 1999 at 12:24:26:

How can you tell what's causing what?



Reintroducing

Posted by
Karel on September 28, 1999 at 13:11:38:

In Reply to: That's what I mean-- posted by Kari on September 28, 1999 at 12:48:06:

You reintroduce one by one, not more than a few foods added every day. After the elimination phase (=6 days), you will be more sensible to feel an immediate reaction (or nothing if it is no allergen for you), also with those foods normally causing a delayed one.
Karel



Thanks karel

Posted by KAri on September 28, 1999 at 16:24:39:

In Reply to: Reintroducing posted by Karel on September 28, 1999 at 13:11:38:

Once again, you answered my questions. Thanks!



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