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Beer Drinking

Posted by
Sally Fields [20.671] on July 08, 2005 at 16:03:39:

Hey guys,
Mu husband drinks alot of beer. I mean alot. I am pretty sure he is an alcoholic. He dosen't drink anything else, just beer. One night at a party we were at, a friend and I counted that he had drank 38 beers in 4 hours. Does not interfere whatsoever with his job, or really other functions of his life he has to attend to (most of the time). But he can get a 12-pack on his way home from work, and be done with it when he gets home. On Saturdays after work (he works half-a-day)), he can really put the beer away, let me tell you. And what really bothers me is when he gets a buzz, or drunk (which, he doesn't get "drunk" often, it takes ALOT), (I guess his body is so used to it), he acts so stupid!! He does not get mean, or anything, just stupid!! and It drives me crazy!! He will pass out in the den in his chair on these occasions, and I will leave him there, and he will be in the bed the next morning. He never has a hangover. He is great guy, and a great husband, but I have had enough!!! I don't know what to do, there is no talking to him, been there, done that!! Thanks
Sally Fields



Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by Sounder [2174.1399] on July 08, 2005 at 16:14:47:

In Reply to: Beer Drinking posted by Sally Fields [20.671] on July 08, 2005 at 16:03:39:

Wow!

My first thought was..."and you are worried about your small gut?" ; ) He must look like he is going to have quintuplets.

I am not sure how to deal with this. I would read up on the internet and other places. Doesn't seem like a big problem at this moment, but it surely will be...I mean in terms of concequences.

Have you talked to him about the amount he drinks? Probably is up to him, ultimately. He is drinking and driving if I understand correctly. You could set him up for the cops, that might shock him into reality.

good luck,

S



Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by lissa [1263.2134] on July 08, 2005 at 16:20:22:

In Reply to: Beer Drinking posted by Sally Fields [20.671] on July 08, 2005 at 16:03:39:

Hi Sally,

There isn't anything you can do but accept it. I'm sorry I know this isn't what you wanted to hear but unless he accepts it is a problem and wants to change it, you can't do anything.



Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 08, 2005 at 16:36:59:

In Reply to: Beer Drinking posted by Sally Fields [20.671] on July 08, 2005 at 16:03:39:

He is great guy, and a great husband

Can you focus on that?



Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by WOW [1317.489] on July 08, 2005 at 17:09:34:

In Reply to: Beer Drinking posted by Sally Fields [20.671] on July 08, 2005 at 16:03:39:

Hi Sally,
I rarely post but had to respond to this. I have been dealing with a similar problem but on a much bigger scale that is effecting my life badly to the point that I had suicide thoughts, it started with my DH the same way but progressively got worse, it never stays the same, he will get angry and resentful and eventuallywill start blaming you.
My suggestion is, get out of there for a week or a month, find a friend to stay with and have him be alone to realize
that he can actually lose you, it should shock him enough to start considering help. In my case it wouldn;t work anymore,
it has gone too far and there is no return anymore but there
is hope for you both since you say he is still a good husband. Mine was too.... Remember, as the brain gets effected by the alcohol that will change so do something while you have a chance to help him and the only way you can is through leaving him alone with his beer. He will soon have to choose you or the beer and that will be a good test.
Good luck!




Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by Ron [1013.1989] on July 08, 2005 at 17:32:34:

In Reply to: Beer Drinking posted by Sally Fields [20.671] on July 08, 2005 at 16:03:39:

Hi Sally,

All I can say to that is... make sure he is well insured.

(Do you think he might be pouring it in the wrong hole?)


Follow Ups:


Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by Barb [1031.1590] on July 08, 2005 at 17:41:14:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 08, 2005 at 16:36:59:

Can she focus on that and then what? ignore the drinking?



Re: Beer Drinking-Sally

Posted by barb [1031.1590] on July 08, 2005 at 17:43:17:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by lissa [1263.2134] on July 08, 2005 at 16:20:22:

Hi Sally, have you looked into Alanon its for spouses of alcholics. They will have lots of information for you.



Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by cindy [72.1671] on July 08, 2005 at 18:08:47:

In Reply to: Beer Drinking posted by Sally Fields [20.671] on July 08, 2005 at 16:03:39:

has he ever had a standard cdc blood test? wonder what his liverenzyms are? i cant tolerste 2 beers. scary.,



Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 08, 2005 at 18:14:11:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by Barb [1031.1590] on July 08, 2005 at 17:41:14:

Yes.

Follow Ups:


Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by
Sally Fields [6.671] on July 08, 2005 at 18:18:38:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by Sounder [2174.1399] on July 08, 2005 at 16:14:47:

Hey Sounder,
"My first thought was, and your worried about your small gut".

That was funny!! Good one!!
Yes I have talked to him about how much he drinks, and he changes the subject, or ignores me, or acts like I don't know what I'm talking about. Yes, he does have a big stomach. Not too, too, bad, but big. And no, getting the cops on him is not an option. It will affect me and my children financially. He doesn't drive too much when he drinks because he mainly goes fishing around here or hangs out here or whatever, he is a true-blood redneck. But he does drive some when he is drinking, and this really bothers me, because we cannot afford for him to get a ticket, especially a DUI. My children do not ride with him when he drinks, if only around the farm. I am pretty sick of it.



Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 08, 2005 at 18:20:22:

In Reply to: Beer Drinking posted by Sally Fields [20.671] on July 08, 2005 at 16:03:39:

I am sure that most people can't drink that much water. Apparently, his physiology is much different from that of many other people. So maybe you shouldn't apply usual rules to him. Beware of picking up someone else's problem.

Follow Ups:


Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by lissa [1263.2134] on July 08, 2005 at 18:21:30:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by cindy [72.1671] on July 08, 2005 at 18:08:47:

I can't tolerate beer at all anymore. I drank about 3/4 of one last week and felt a little nauseous. I never could pack it away like Sally's husband but I could drink a lot of it (and other alcohols) usually without noticeable problems with alertness, or walking. I never drove when I was drinking though.



Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by
Sally Fields [6.671] on July 08, 2005 at 18:23:16:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by WOW [1317.489] on July 08, 2005 at 17:09:34:

Hey WOW,
I assume DH is your husband? I have thought about leaving him, but I don';t know where I would go. I cannot go to my parents, anyway they live right down the road, that wouldn't be going very far. Also, I am a stay-at-home mom, actually working on a medical transcription course, to do this at home so I can still be at home with my kids. I don't have the money to leave him for a month or so, I can't take his money, even though I handle the finances, that wouldn't be right, would it? So, if you don't mind my asking, what did you do? Did you leave him?



Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by
Sally Fields [6.671] on July 08, 2005 at 18:28:52:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 08, 2005 at 16:36:59:

Hey R.
I do focus on that. What else can I focus on? But, you can't just focus on that and ignore the other things all the time. It doesn't work like that, eventually you have had enough. Know what I mean? This has been going on 4-ever. I'm sick of it. I am not perfect by any means, but I am sick of all the beer drinking he does. His excuse is he works all the time, and really enjoys it, well, no shit, but that much?? It's the way he gets when he drinks so much (which is all the time), his eyes are so red, speech slurred, and like a dumb ass I sit there and argue with him, and he swears he is not drunk, can barely walk, but he is not drunk!! It is really infuriating!!



Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by
Sally Fields [6.671] on July 08, 2005 at 18:32:10:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by lissa [1263.2134] on July 08, 2005 at 16:20:22:

Hey Lissa,
You know, I think you are right. The only think I can do is leave him, if that is my choice. It is up to him, I can't make him believe he is an alcoholic, he won't listen, I have even tried to get his mom to talk to him (who he thinks walks on water), but to no avail. I don't think it is a good environment for my kids to be around either, even though he is a good dad, they are not blind, they see him drink 12 beer in a row when he walks in the door from work. Thanks for listening.

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Re: Beer Drinking-Sally

Posted by
Sally Fields [6.671] on July 08, 2005 at 18:32:58:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking-Sally posted by barb [1031.1590] on July 08, 2005 at 17:43:17:

Hey Barb,
That is an idea, maybe I will get some information. Thanks.



Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by WOW [1317.489] on July 08, 2005 at 19:39:10:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by Sally Fields [6.671] on July 08, 2005 at 18:23:16:

Hi Sally,
Like you, i don;t have a place to go and can't afford it since my business is home based and I can't take the merchandise with me. I am just learning to stop paying attention especially that this marriage has been pretty much in the name only for the last few years. He has many other problems beyond help and doesn't want to be helped anyway, there is porn and very violent streek along with self hatred and feeling of inadequacy (spelling?) so I am pretty much just trying to stay afloat on my own living in th same house, it's been a very difficult road and I wish I saw that coming few years ago and had the guts to leave then, maybe he would come to his senses and got help while he still could, that is why i suggested it. I can't leave even if I had the guts to start new life because of my elderly father who lives here with us, I can't drag him along so I just have to bite my tongue and get through it. Many nights I dream of a husband who tucks me in to bed and places a gentle kiss on my forehead and brings flowers when he comes home from work but I just have to get used to the reality. at first i tried to talk to him about it but every time I was called a bitch and a nag so I stopped, it's not doing any good. I think it might have something to do with mid age crisis, he thinks he is a teenager again and wants young girls (he even talks to may on the dating website) and his "old" wife reminds him of his real age so he drinks and resents me, at least that is what I think. In any case, it's been hell.
Good luck to you!





Re: Beer Drinking-Sally

Posted by lissa [1263.2134] on July 08, 2005 at 19:55:50:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking-Sally posted by barb [1031.1590] on July 08, 2005 at 17:43:17:

Hi Barb,

That is a good idea. I didn't think Sally was considering leaving considering she said he was a good husband. I wouldn't leave somebody simply because they were an alcoholic. It is a problem but if Sally doesn't understand alcoholism, then Alanon is an excellent place to go to learn about it.

Sally, if the good outweighs the bad, leaving shouldn't be a consideration. I think your kids could go to alanon too if you felt they should.

Follow Ups:


Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by Alexandria Dumas [169.20] on July 08, 2005 at 20:28:45:

In Reply to: Beer Drinking posted by Sally Fields [20.671] on July 08, 2005 at 16:03:39:

This is an awful situation. As someone else said, you MUST get to an Al-Anon meeting fast (and there's Alateen for the children). It really WILL change your life. I watched my mother do a 360 after starting to go to Al-Anon meetings and nothing else in her life changed except for those meetings. She went from miserable to joyous and it didn't take very long.

She hasn't been to a meeting in a couple years now, you don't have to go for the rest of your life or anything, you just need the tools to understand what's happening and how to deal with it. And you do not need to leave your husband.

Mom recommends going to six meetings as quick as you can. They also have lots of really helpful reading material. I read their book, "From Survival to Recovery: Growing Up in an Alcoholic Home," and literally cried through the entire book (alcoholic stepfather). You might want to read their book, "The Dilemma of the Alcoholic Marriage," and there are others. I find their literature really spot-on.

Here's their website: http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/sitemap.html

You are not alone.



Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by lissa [1263.2134] on July 08, 2005 at 21:02:47:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by Barb [1031.1590] on July 08, 2005 at 17:41:14:

yes.

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Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by PhillyLady [2051.1599] on July 08, 2005 at 21:56:32:

In Reply to: Beer Drinking posted by Sally Fields [20.671] on July 08, 2005 at 16:03:39:

Hi Sally:

When was the last time he had a good physical check-up? Has he any idea what shape his liver is in? He needs to have it evaluated before he needs a transplant. Sally, you seem to love your husband, but please realize that he has a serious problem, and that he's self-destructing. At this point Al-anon might be your best bet.

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Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by ukchris [1400.2032] on July 08, 2005 at 22:24:33:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by WOW [1317.489] on July 08, 2005 at 19:39:10:

"Many nights I dream of a husband who tucks me in to bed and places a gentle kiss on my forehead and brings flowers when he comes home from work"

you deserve this....i genuinely hope that things get better for you.

i'll email soon.




Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by cindy [72.50] on July 08, 2005 at 22:35:58:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by lissa [1263.2134] on July 08, 2005 at 18:21:30:

the difference between men and women



Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by cindy [72.50] on July 08, 2005 at 22:44:44:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by Sally Fields [6.671] on July 08, 2005 at 18:28:52:

maybe start tucking away a little here and there until you save enough to leave if you chose. you might feel more empowered.

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Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by Sounder [2174.1399] on July 08, 2005 at 22:47:42:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by Sally Fields [6.671] on July 08, 2005 at 18:18:38:

Hi Sally,

I guess I was only half serious about possibly setting the cops on him. But if he can down a 12 pack on the way home from work, that runs into moneys, anyway. I don't think you can get a 12er of the cheap stuff around here for much less than ten dollars. If he drinks that daily and more on the weekends, you are talking some real money. If he goes to a bar, forgedaboudit!

Good luck,

Sounder

Follow Ups:


Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by lissa [1263.2134] on July 08, 2005 at 23:16:39:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by cindy [72.50] on July 08, 2005 at 22:35:58:

Hi Cindy,

Did you mean the driving? Maybe. There are probably more male offenders but women do it too. I did drive drunk ONCE. 21st Birthday. I didn't have an accident and the bar was only 2 blks. away. I remember driving home thinking "this is messed up" I should have walked but I just figured I'd make it. I did but I parked a little screwy. Never did it again.



Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by maryb [516.1801] on July 08, 2005 at 23:17:45:

In Reply to: Beer Drinking posted by Sally Fields [20.671] on July 08, 2005 at 16:03:39:

38 beers in 4 hours, a 12-pack on the way home which is gone when he gets
there, drinking til he passes out, and you're pretty sure he's an alcoholic??? At
this point, he may need quantity just to reach the place where he feels
normal, due to changes in his brain chemistry as the alcoholism advances.
What happens to him if he doesn't drink, and how long can he go without
drinking? How do you know that his drinking isn't interfering with his work?

Maybe his drinking doesn't interfere with some aspects of his life, but it sure
sounds like it's interfering with his marriage. You have an alcoholic husband,
and denial is part of that package. Going to Al-Anon as soon as you can is a
very, very smart move. You need to learn about what's happening to him,
physiologically as well as psychologically, and also learn how you may be
enabling him inadvertently. You can't make him change, but you can make
changes yourself, and take care of yourself.

It's not a good sign that he doesn't have hangovers; it suggests that he keeps
enough alcohol in his system to prevent detox from starting, which is what
hangovers are. At this point, your husband probably needs that much beer
just to stay functional, and it's a serious downhill from this point if he doesn't
change his drinking habits.

If this sounds a bit scary, it's because it *is* scary. People don't want to face
the grim side of drinking, but right now, it's staring you in the face. Treat it
like the serious, health-threatening addiction it is and have the courage to
face this situation as squarely as you can. Beer is not less addictive than other
types of alcohol, and it's not benign in that quantity, with that regularity. I
hope you have a good, solid support system, and that your husband does, as
well. And most of all, I wish you luck in dealing with this serious problem.

maryb

Follow Ups:


Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by maryb [516.1801] on July 08, 2005 at 23:20:17:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by Sally Fields [6.671] on July 08, 2005 at 18:18:38:

How is his appetite for food?

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Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by lissa [1263.2134] on July 08, 2005 at 23:25:14:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by lissa [1263.2134] on July 08, 2005 at 23:16:39:

Or did you mean the tolerance? I don't know if there is a difference there. I never really drank a lot but there was a period of time I did drink every day and a lot. For about a year. tolerance is something that builds up. I still can't imagine downing so much as Sally's husband. I did know someone who might have drank as much (it was a man) I just don't really have a desire to drink (never did have a BIG desire, mostly just went out for company....weren't really people I liked but something to do)and I find I can't tolerate it. I have apple schnapps, cinnamon shnapps and blackberry wine (probably should throw that one out) in the fridge that's been there several months. Don't ever feel like drinking it but that's what I bought it for. I did drink some but all the bottles are about half full. Some of it is lack of desire, but my stomach can't take much anymore(tolerance with getting drunk and being an ass is probably still high)

My dad is an alcoholic, his dad was an alcoholic...I'm not.



Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by WOW [1317.489] on July 08, 2005 at 23:33:50:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by ukchris [1400.2032] on July 08, 2005 at 22:24:33:

Thanks so much Chris!! :-)

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Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by lissa [1263.2134] on July 08, 2005 at 23:52:26:

In Reply to: Beer Drinking posted by Sally Fields [20.671] on July 08, 2005 at 16:03:39:

Oh Sally, want to tell you about this guy I knew that sounds a lot like your husband. He held was responsible with his job too but started drinking when he got off (I don't know if he waited til he got home or not, but probably not) He was my neighbor. He really packed it away too, I'd never seen anything like this (with SO MUCH) He quit drinking and last I heard he's still sober BUT, his world fell apart before he took that step. He lost his car (crash) I happened to be in the car (pretty stupid of me, when I knew he drank a lot) but I didn't think he was THAT drunk (again pretty stupid of me). It was a canyon road out in California. It was a NASTY road. Curvy. Anyway I knew we were in trouble pretty soon after we got on this road. I knew we were taking this road but I could tell his skills were poor. No way to turn around, but we ended up going off the cliff. I don't know how far down it was but FAR. It was LOUD. They had helicopters trying to find the car (I guess somebody heard it) I had a couple of broken ribs and a sore face (from the airbag).

Anyway he lost his car, his girlfriend (not me) and I don't know what else he lost before he quit (but I heard it through the grapevine he was sober and last I heard, still is)

Often times this is what it takes for a person to quit. I wouldn't do it to the person just to get them to quit, but sometimes (like with WOW) you have to get away but it sounds like there were other problems there. You cannot get an alcoholic to quit by talking to them about it though, that's for sure.

If you decide to go to ALANON, invite your husband to come too (If it wouldn't just spark denial, it might but if he isn't nasty and is a good husband, he will understand that you are concerned).

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Re: Beer Drinking-Sally

Posted by Barb [1035.1590] on July 09, 2005 at 01:45:49:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking-Sally posted by Sally Fields [6.671] on July 08, 2005 at 18:32:58:

Your welcome Sally. I'm sure your experiencing other symtoms of your husbands alcholism. Alanon will be a good first step for you. There will be lots of support for you. Then you'll be able to decide what direction would be best for you and your family.

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Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by Lurch [140.2035] on July 09, 2005 at 01:49:29:

In Reply to: Beer Drinking posted by Sally Fields [20.671] on July 08, 2005 at 16:03:39:

Hi,

I don't blame you. That's a lot of beer and is really excessive.

There is a show on the A&E Network called Intervention. It's all about people like your husband that are addicted to various substances. If I were you I'd call them and see if they'll do a show on your family. If he will allow it, they'll tape the show and send him to intervention for free.

Lurch


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Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by Jane (1) [111.1399] on July 09, 2005 at 05:22:40:

In Reply to: Beer Drinking posted by Sally Fields [20.671] on July 08, 2005 at 16:03:39:

Hi SAlly,

It may be that you'll need to consider asking your husband to choose between his addiction and his life with you. Seek counselling for yourself alone, if he won't go...

Jane



Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by Steve [2966.1584] on July 09, 2005 at 06:53:04:

In Reply to: Beer Drinking posted by Sally Fields [20.671] on July 08, 2005 at 16:03:39:

Sally,

I didn't read the other post, but tell him to kiss his liver goodby..Don't know how old he is, but around the age of 40 is where most of my peers started having problems..

Silver Fox!

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Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 09, 2005 at 08:52:05:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by Sally Fields [6.671] on July 08, 2005 at 18:28:52:

Ok, I have a suggestion for you. When I have a problem in my relationships (with anybody), I want and can correct it only if I can understand how it affects the other person. I mean really feel it myself. I need to be (at least, by using my imagination) in the other person's shoes. Otherwise, I just argue that they are incorrect interpreting what happens.

You should be able to prove to him that his behaviour affects you. Use a video camera to record what you described. Not drinking but how his drinking gets him into a state where your communication with him suffers. You need to be able to clearly demonstrate to him that his drinking significantly lowers quality of life with him. And show him how it can be higher. Just words and critisism doesn't work apparently, so maybe bringing it to his face "in day light" will.

You could also play his role. Pretend to be drunk or silly or whatever he won't like and make him feel what you feel when he's drunk.

Otherwise, it is possible your husband doesn't believe what you're saying or understand why you're bitching.



Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 09, 2005 at 08:58:37:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by Alexandria Dumas [169.20] on July 08, 2005 at 20:28:45:

Wouldn't 360 be coming back where you started? :)



Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by Alexandria Dumas [169.20] on July 09, 2005 at 09:33:25:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 09, 2005 at 08:58:37:

Wouldn't 360 be coming back where you started?

Yes, thank you. Should have read 180. I was hoping no one would notice that error. ; - )

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Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by Terri-Lynn [1917.2113] on July 09, 2005 at 10:10:19:

In Reply to: Beer Drinking posted by Sally Fields [20.671] on July 08, 2005 at 16:03:39:

Wow! Everyone has really given you great advice! The key is Alcohol has already become a problem in your marriage; Alanon is for you and it will help you so much at this time, i sure went when i needed it years ago and it will help you deal with what your up against;

Now quote from the AA Book;
If anyone questions whether he has entered this dangerous area, let him try leaving liquor alone for one year. If he i a real alcoholic and very far advanced, there is scant chance of success.
He would have to get to a place where he see's that
the first step of AA speaks to him;

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol-that our lives had become unmanageable.

We perceive that only through utter defeat are we able to take our first steps toward liberation and strength.
Until he so humbles himself, his sobriety-if any will be precarious.

Now the physical with a good physician might be a great way for him to see that there might be a probelm, if they symptoms are showing up;
Until he has had enough and has hit some kind of a bottom for him, alcoholics just don't stop. Now everyone gets to a different bottom, hopfully his won't be to deep into the whole;
The key for you is don't go there with him, this is where Alanon can help, knowing how to handle the situation for yourself;



Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 09, 2005 at 12:12:32:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by lissa [1263.2134] on July 08, 2005 at 23:25:14:

My dad is an alcoholic, his dad was an alcoholic...I'm not.

Suuure. That's what alcoholics say. Be strong, Lissa, and say, "Hi, I am Lissa, and I am an alcoholic."



Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 09, 2005 at 12:27:22:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by Jane (1) [111.1399] on July 09, 2005 at 05:22:40:

you'll need to consider asking your husband to choose between his addiction and his life with you.

This leads to a more general situation. Should people do the same when their partner, say, eat a lot of refined foods (or eat meat or eat a vegetarian way)? What should we do when our partners do what we think is harmful to them?



Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 09, 2005 at 13:51:05:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 09, 2005 at 12:12:32:

LOL! My name is lissa and I'm a ADDICT.



Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 09, 2005 at 13:52:04:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 09, 2005 at 13:51:05:

I sure have the desire to smoke a joint sometimes. Don't do it though.



Oh I forgot

Posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 09, 2005 at 13:55:48:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 09, 2005 at 13:51:05:

I've been clean for 4 years.

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I've used and tried other things but that's the only one I still desire.nmi

Posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 09, 2005 at 14:07:05:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 09, 2005 at 13:52:04:

nm

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Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 09, 2005 at 15:03:08:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 09, 2005 at 13:52:04:

This is the last one I promise.

I don't know if I would be considered a true addict given my ability to take it or leave it so easily. Most of the time I only desire to smoke marijuana if I am overwhelmed, or around someone I know smokes it. That would be psychological addiction I think.

I'm sure addicted to cigarettes though.



Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by
Sally Fields [15.671] on July 09, 2005 at 16:19:01:

In Reply to: Beer Drinking posted by Sally Fields [20.671] on July 08, 2005 at 16:03:39:

Hey guys,
I really appreciate all of your advice, you guys really gave me some good stuff to think about. John is a really big guy, I am amazed at how much beer he drinks, I didn't realize a person could drink that much! As someone said in a post, people can't drink that much water, let alone beer!! But he does. He has a great appetite to answer someone's question. Very healthy looking, little overweight, in the gut area, but it fits because he is such a big guy. He never has health problems. But, never goes to the doctor either. I am sure his liver is a mess. I keep telling him he needs to go in and have a physical. He is 37 years old, and has been drinking beer like this for at least 12 years, or longer, I don't know he has drank it like a fish since I knew him. It does not affect his job at all, I know this, he only drinks it when he gets off work, through the evening when he's outside doing chores, or Saturdays, watch out!! It is pretty much all day (that's the day he usually passes out in the chair), Some Sundays he doesn't drink it at all, others he drinks it alot again, others not as much. And some work days, he only has a few after work, but most of the time he can really down them!! But he still gets stuff done, he is always working, at work, at home, taking my son fishing, going to events my daughter is in, family stuff, that is why I say it does not affect his life really. So he can handle life without it, does this still mean he is an alcoholic? Yes, his beer drinking gets very expensive, and we fight about that alot. I like the idea of a video camera, I can't believe I have not thought of that, that is the perfect way for me to show him how he is when he is drunk. Thanks again for all of your help, I'll let you know what happens. And Wow, I though I had problems until I read your post, he is not like that. He is very good to me and loves me, and doesn't cheat on me and shows me he loves me. You do not deserve to be treated like that. Please know that. Later
Sally Fields



Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 09, 2005 at 18:37:54:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by Sally Fields [15.671] on July 09, 2005 at 16:19:01:

Another interesting bit of info: beer can contain a significant amount of a substance called beta-glucan 1, 3 or something like. It is known for its immune system stimulating properties. (I think it activates macrophages.) Research into it, and you might find that the whole isn't as much of a problem, combined with lack of evident health problems and his love for you.

I don't think it's wise to assume that his liver is a mess because he would've had lots of problems. Liver is a very important organ and serious problems with it are obvious.

Follow Ups:


Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 09, 2005 at 18:39:23:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 09, 2005 at 15:03:08:

We all know you're addicted to posting on internet forums.



Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by Jane (1) [111.1399] on July 09, 2005 at 21:44:37:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 09, 2005 at 12:27:22:

Well, R, if you can find some examples where, say, eating vegetarian food causes behavioural change that impacts on another person's enjoyment of life, then do let me know!

Jane



Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by WOW [1317.489] on July 09, 2005 at 21:57:12:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by Sally Fields [15.671] on July 09, 2005 at 16:19:01:

Good luck to you, Sally!
I hope he can snap out of it before it;s too late. He is still very young and by the time he is my husband's age, the health problems can start showing up and his older immune system will not be able to fight them as easily. Maybe you both can go the a councelling together and you can assure him that you will be there for him every step of the way because when you think about it, maybe his love is not as deep as he says or he would
realize how his behavior is hurting you, after all when we truly love someone, we don;t want them to hurt and we want the best for them.



Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 09, 2005 at 22:39:28:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by Jane (1) [111.1399] on July 09, 2005 at 21:44:37:

Vegetarian diet (especially, a vegan type) is deficient in B12, which is known to cause neurogical damage, which I am sure will cause undesirable (to a partner) behavioral changes.

By why limit to behavioural effects? Most people who love, and God forbid, rely on the him or her, would like the partner to stay alive and well for as long as possible. But this can be problematic if one's diet is deficient in necessary nutrients. A diet can also affect health of children to be had by a woman.

There are plenty of possible situations in which one can think the other is damaging his/her life and effecting their relationship. You can't do much with a dead or decrepit body, can you? Not for long, anyway.



Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 09, 2005 at 22:42:14:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by WOW [1317.489] on July 09, 2005 at 21:57:12:

Would you give up eating grain based foods if you had a loving husband who was adamant that grains were bad for you?



Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by maryb [516.1801] on July 09, 2005 at 23:19:38:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by Sally Fields [15.671] on July 09, 2005 at 16:19:01:

Being able to carry out daily activities is called being a 'functional drunk'. Not
every alcoholic is impaired to the point of visible incapacity, but the damage
happens nonetheless.

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Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by maryb [516.1801] on July 09, 2005 at 23:27:45:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 09, 2005 at 08:52:05:

R, that is an excellent suggestion. Because it's hard to argue with a
videotaped account, and even harder to deny what's there. Words are far less
useful than behavior, especially in situations like this. Plus, denial is a
powerful part of alcoholism, and words alone just can't penetrate it.

mary

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Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 09, 2005 at 23:31:00:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 09, 2005 at 18:39:23:

Only this one. I don't post in any other forum. but I think I'm addicted to this place because you people are so helpful and informative (and funny sometimes)

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Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by Jane (1) [111.1399] on July 09, 2005 at 23:34:16:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 09, 2005 at 22:39:28:

Um R you are creating a canard here, which you well know, and which you are practised at: i.e. making a sensible discussion a nonsense by pushing your own weird barrow (such as your penchant for eugenics). Where is the evidence that a deficiency in vitamin B12 causes relationship breakdown and social dysfunction, please?

Jane



Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 09, 2005 at 23:42:13:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 09, 2005 at 22:39:28:

Hi R.

My BF nags me about eating better all the time. I don't think he's going to leave me over it. I complain about his behavior sometimes. I might leave him (I've been assuming he could control it but it could be I was wrong) I've felt he's made little or no effort but he is depressed so maybe it is that he can't.

He says he wants to work on it but how long I could tolerate it I don't know. There are people who are amazed that I've tolerated as long as I have.

I still think we should get counseling but if we don't do it soon or he doesn't show some improvement, I don't think it will work.

The difference between someone not taking care of themselves and behavioral problems are really pretty big.




Clarification: not taking care.........nutritionally.nmi

Posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 09, 2005 at 23:44:17:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 09, 2005 at 23:42:13:

nm

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Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by Lurch [140.2035] on July 10, 2005 at 06:51:43:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by Sally Fields [15.671] on July 09, 2005 at 16:19:01:

He is an alcoholic and IMHO needs intervention.

It would be one thing if he was just a regular beer drinker but in those amounts I don't think he'd live a very long life if he continues.

Beer is usually made using fluoridated city water. Fluoride is toxic.

Beer and alcohol is a diuretic. I would be very concerned about his electrolytes if beer is the only thing he drinks.

I could be wrong but I don't think anyone that regularly drinks that much beer has a long life to look forward to. I would be very concerned about his longevity.

Lurch


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Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 10, 2005 at 11:28:11:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by Jane (1) [111.1399] on July 09, 2005 at 23:34:16:

I think I've made an adequate effort to explain what I mean, but you don't appear to make efforts to understand what I am saying. I think you're arguing for the sake of arguing. Hence, I will find something else to spend my time on.

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Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 10, 2005 at 11:39:33:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 09, 2005 at 23:42:13:

The difference between someone not taking care of themselves and behavioral problems are really pretty big.

I don't know if you added that to say that you disagree with what I said or not.

Not taking care of oneself nutrionally is a behavior, and as excessive drinking, can lead to shortening life span and loss of health (mental and emotional problems, infertility, loss of physical attractiveness, sexual disfunction, etc.), which can negatively affect another person and their relationship. So, with this in mind, my question is whether it's OK to leave such partner.

See, somebody suggested that Sally tell her husband that he should choose between living with her or drinking alcohol. Sally has said that her husband is a good man, father, and husband and that he loves her and shows that to her. They told her to consider leaving him because his behaviour can lead to serious problems. Again, the question I am raising is whether everybody who's living with a partner who indulges in something they consider potentially dangerous leave the partner.



Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 10, 2005 at 13:50:53:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 10, 2005 at 11:39:33:

Hi R.

I wasn't really disagreeing with you, but I meant that as far as it effecting a relationship, there may be a big difference.

I absolutely do not think that leaving a partner for engaging in something they consider potentially dangerous is the issue, but engaging in things that affect the other partner negatively is the issue, and I believe that if the partner has little or no control over it (as with alcoholism), it would be better to understand the behavior. If there are other issues (unrelated to alcohol, as in cheating, or intentional abusive behavior then I'd say leave.



P.S.

Posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 10, 2005 at 14:01:27:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 10, 2005 at 13:50:53:

My boyfriend may or may not be an alcoholic. He doesn't drink as much as he did when I met him and in fact hardly at all anymore. It is a bit interesting that I told him not too long ago that he may as well still be drinking, with the way he behaves. If you quit drinking and continue to behave like an alcoholic (and I don't think this is really uncommon) you are not recovering.

I don't see that Sally's husband's behavior is too bad considering the way many people who are addicts behave but someone was correct in terming this "functioning alcoholic" His drinking is creating problems for Sally and that makes it an issue of alcoholism. If he isn't listening to her concerns about it, then he is denying there is a problem when there clearly is (typical of alcoholics until the problem gets worse to where Sally would get to the point she's at and leave) She should explore other options first if there is love there.



Re: P.S.

Posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 10, 2005 at 15:04:25:

In Reply to: P.S. posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 10, 2005 at 14:01:27:

His drinking is creating problems for Sally and that makes it an issue of alcoholism.

From everything she said, it seems to me that the problem she has is mostly because of her perception that it is dangerous. Overall, her husband displays traits and behavior that many women would be happy about: love for her, good with kids, etc. He is healthy now.

But the point I've been trying to get across is ANYTHING can potentially affect the other person and relationship.



Re: P.S.

Posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 10, 2005 at 16:06:12:

In Reply to: Re: P.S. posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 10, 2005 at 15:04:25:

I didn't interpret her initial comments to be that she is concerned with it being dangerous (though the DWI is dangerous) I read it this way "he is STUPID when he is drunk and it gets on my nerves" "he won't listen to me" "he says it's not a problem, he does it because he likes the taste but for God's sake WHY SO MUCH?"

That's where I perceived the problem to be. The health concerns are no doubt there but I doubt it's the biggest problem.



Re: P.S.

Posted by lissa [2032.39] on July 10, 2005 at 16:19:48:

In Reply to: Re: P.S. posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 10, 2005 at 16:06:12:

And I don't think it is the problem that would incline Sally to wish to leave either.

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Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 10, 2005 at 16:32:56:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by WOW [1317.489] on July 09, 2005 at 21:57:12:

Hi WOW,

"maybe his love is not as deep as he says or he would
realize how his behavior is hurting you, after all when we truly love someone, we don;t want them to hurt and we want the best for them."

Alcoholics do not have the capacity to realize the way they are hurting the people they truly love. It may be that his love is not as deep as he says but if he is ADDICTED, he is ADDICTED. It isn't as if he can help it even if he DID recognize it was a problem. An alcoholic or drug addict must admit there is a problem and the problem is taking control over there life before they can begin to do something to change it. He may not see it as a big problem and may think Sally is over-reacting. This is called denial. It is extremely common in an alcoholic.


Follow Ups:


Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 10, 2005 at 17:29:04:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by Terri-Lynn [1917.2113] on July 09, 2005 at 10:10:19:

Hi Terri-Lynn,

I wasn't sure about inviting him to go with her. The only reason I would even suggest it is for him to see that it IS a problem that is destructive and having a bad effect on his marriage. I don't think it would be a good idea for him to go initially. How do you get one to recognize an alcohol problem BEFORE they hit bottom?



Re: P.S.

Posted by lissa [2032.39] on July 10, 2005 at 20:06:04:

In Reply to: Re: P.S. posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 10, 2005 at 15:04:25:

"Overall, her husband displays traits and behavior that many women would be happy about: love for her, good with kids, etc. He is healthy now. "

I agree with this except for the last sentence. Drinking so much beer and having it effect your brain is NOT healthy.



Re: P.S.

Posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 10, 2005 at 23:40:46:

In Reply to: Re: P.S. posted by lissa [2032.39] on July 10, 2005 at 20:06:04:

Drinking so much beer and having it effect your brain is NOT healthy.

Would you be able to prove that?



Re: P.S.

Posted by lissa [2032.39] on July 10, 2005 at 23:53:05:

In Reply to: Re: P.S. posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 10, 2005 at 23:40:46:

It has been proven to cause brain damage. You can research it on your own. Alcohol withdrawal kills people too and I'm pretty sure it has something to do with the central nervous system.



To get you started with your research

Posted by lissa [2032.39] on July 11, 2005 at 00:08:58:

In Reply to: Re: P.S. posted by lissa [2032.39] on July 10, 2005 at 23:53:05:

http://www.alcohol-abuse-effects.com/alcohol-withdrawal.htm

Chronic CNS Effects. Long-term exposure to ethanol modifies certain neurotransmission sites in the CNS. Withdrawal from alcohol results in rebound hyperstimulation and some degree of neuronal death.14

The N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) type of glutamate receptor, which is specifically inhibited by ethanol, plays a role in neuronal development. Its inhibition is thought to be the mechanism underlying fetal alcohol syndrome as well as neuronal demise by up-regulation of chronically ethanol-inhibited hippocampal cells.15 Compensatory glutamate-mediated hyperstimulation of the NMDA receptor during withdrawal produces excitotoxic cell death and may cause epileptiform seizure activity. This is particularly true following drinking binges, and administration of antagonists of NMDA may be protective. Withdrawal-induced synaptic excitation mediated by the NMDA receptor is accompanied by increased calcium spikes. Some calcium-channel antagonists are effective in preventing withdrawal seizures.16,17

Alcohol also potentiates the inhibitory neurotransmitter gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA). The activity of the neuronal chloride ion channel linked to the A-type GABA receptor is increased during acute exposure to high alcohol levels.18 This receptor is the site of action of benzodiazepines and may partly explain their benefit in alcohol withdrawal. Alcoholís affect on GABAA may contribute to alcoholís anxiolytic, sedative, and motor impairment actions.3 Hyperexcitability and seizures may develop in alcohol withdrawal from a compensatory change in the number or function of GABAA receptors following chronic alcohol exposure.3 Growth hormone and corticosterone are also implicated in the mediation of withdrawal syndromes.19,20




That was the wrong http. oops

Posted by lissa [2032.39] on July 11, 2005 at 06:27:31:

In Reply to: To get you started with your research posted by lissa [2032.39] on July 11, 2005 at 00:08:58:

Sorry.

http://www.thrombosis-consult.com/articles/Textbook/116_alcoholwithdrawl.htm

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Re: P.S.

Posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 11, 2005 at 10:32:12:

In Reply to: Re: P.S. posted by lissa [2032.39] on July 10, 2005 at 23:53:05:

I asked you how you would prove that Sally's husband was suffering brain damage. According to Sally, he drinks more beer than a regular man or woman could drink water. So, his physiology is much different from an average man. So, how would you prove that his brain was suffering damage?



Re: P.S.

Posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 11, 2005 at 10:34:14:

In Reply to: Re: P.S. posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 11, 2005 at 10:32:12:

Alcohol affects every cell in a persons body, including the brain and changes their metabolism. It would happen to him as well as any other person.



Re: P.S.

Posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 11, 2005 at 10:38:30:

In Reply to: Re: P.S. posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 11, 2005 at 10:34:14:

And so does breathing. It creates substances that destroy our cells. But we have a detoxification mechanism and one that neutralizes such substances, and our cells can be repaired or replaced with new ones. Maybe his defense mechanisms are stronger than that of any human you know and he will live 50 years beoynd what anyone can think of? There've been people who seemed to defy popular rules.



Re: P.S.

Posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 11, 2005 at 10:45:32:

In Reply to: Re: P.S. posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 11, 2005 at 10:38:30:

Hi R.

I will say once more that it is not healthy. It has proven not to be healthy and destroy brain cells. It has been proven to cause cell damage to embryos. It wouldn't be different from one person to the next. End of story.



Re: P.S.

Posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 11, 2005 at 11:39:50:

In Reply to: Re: P.S. posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 11, 2005 at 10:45:32:

You seem to think that what you know is the absolute truth. Therefore, I will widthraw from this conversation.



Re: P.S.

Posted by lissa [2032.39] on July 11, 2005 at 11:59:45:

In Reply to: Re: P.S. posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 11, 2005 at 11:39:50:

I think I withdrew first but whatever.

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Re: P.S.

Posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 11, 2005 at 12:47:16:

In Reply to: Re: P.S. posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 11, 2005 at 10:38:30:

R.

If it wasn't affecting him, he wouldn't act stupid and pass out.



His THRESHHOLD might differ..metabolic changes are a given..nmi

Posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 11, 2005 at 12:54:05:

In Reply to: Re: P.S. posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 11, 2005 at 12:47:16:

nm

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Re: P.S.

Posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 11, 2005 at 12:57:09:

In Reply to: Re: P.S. posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 11, 2005 at 12:47:16:

And then he could recover with no lasting affects. Beer has (or can have) lots of beneficial things.



Re: P.S.

Posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 11, 2005 at 13:04:56:

In Reply to: Re: P.S. posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 11, 2005 at 12:57:09:

He COULD recover with no lasting affects. That much beer indicates problematic drinking and it would be wise to be careful when/if he quits to be sure that he doesn't seize. The alcohol has become a part of his chemical makeup and to go cold turkey could kill him.

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Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by Terri-Lynn-lissa [1917.2113] on July 11, 2005 at 20:08:27:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 10, 2005 at 17:29:04:

We can't do it for them, not much one can do other then get help yourself, and that is where Alonon comes in to play, it is for the mate that is having difficulties being around the alcoholic and does not know how to behave with them or handle the situation. The feed back from others helps a lot, there stories, one can relate and does not feel so alone in what is going on.
We should not take a spouse to an Alonon meeting, when there the drinker, and you might not want to tell him what you are going off to; When ready they will see that they might need help and go to AA. and they can sit in a meeting and they do not have to share unless they want to, they can listen and so can you at a meeting. [until one is ready to share]; You could go to an open AA meeting with your husband however and sit quietly when he wants to go; I know some people have put the AA. book around the house and some times there husband has picked it up and read part of it and fiqured it out for themselves; Intervention is the best way, when things get bad. Prayer helps a lot also here;



Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by Terri-Lynn-R [1917.2113] on July 11, 2005 at 20:14:07:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by R. [2151.2032] on July 09, 2005 at 22:42:14:

Good question!
Only if one see it themself, that they have a real problem and they want to try it; With an alcoholic some times they can get off, but to stay off for long periods is very difficult and that is why they need a program normally. An Alcoholic is Allergic to Alcohol and craves it; An alcoholic does not mean that a person drinks all the time, it is what it does to the person and how they be have and if it physically effects them and they can't get off;[and they are ready]

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Re: Beer Drinking

Posted by lissa [2032.39] on July 11, 2005 at 20:27:40:

In Reply to: Re: Beer Drinking posted by Terri-Lynn-lissa [1917.2113] on July 11, 2005 at 20:08:27:

Thanks Terri-Lynn. I've never gone to Alanon. I understand what it is about. I would have thought they would have open meetings as well and I realize nobody can get an alcoholic to quit drinking if they don't want to quit, but I don't see anything wrong with allowing them to go to an Alanon meeting to see that it causes problems with their spouses and nudge them in the right direction. Leaving literature around the house is one way, it doesn't really give them the ability to apply it to real situations. They would probably get more benefit from AA though. I plan on purchasing the AA book for my boyfriend soon. He has issues that I think the program would help him with even though he doesn't drink much anymore.

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Re: To get you started with your research (Archive REFERENCE in alcohol.)

Posted by Walt Stoll [93.1889] on July 12, 2005 at 07:03:55:

In Reply to: To get you started with your research posted by lissa [2032.39] on July 11, 2005 at 00:08:58:

Thanks, Lissa.

Walt



Re: To get you started with your research (Archive REFERENCE in alcohol.)

Posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 12, 2005 at 09:31:58:

In Reply to: Re: To get you started with your research (Archive REFERENCE in alcohol.) posted by Walt Stoll [93.1889] on July 12, 2005 at 07:03:55:

Hi Walt,

If you are going to archive this, make sure you get the right source. It is below here. The text had effects on other organs too, I just copied the CNS part since that is what we were discussing.



Re: To get you started with your research (Archive REFERENCE in alcohol.)

Posted by Walt Stoll [93.1889] on July 13, 2005 at 08:19:06:

In Reply to: Re: To get you started with your research (Archive REFERENCE in alcohol.) posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 12, 2005 at 09:31:58:

Thanks, Lissa.

Link?

Walt



link

Posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 13, 2005 at 09:54:58:

In Reply to: Re: To get you started with your research (Archive REFERENCE in alcohol.) posted by Walt Stoll [93.1889] on July 13, 2005 at 08:19:06:

http://www.thrombosis-consult.com/articles/Textbook/116_alcoholwithdrawl.htm



Re: link

Posted by Walt Stoll [93.1889] on July 14, 2005 at 08:35:09:

In Reply to: link posted by lissa [1937.39] on July 13, 2005 at 09:54:58:

Thanks, Lissa.

Walt

Follow Ups:


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