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Cardiac workup - like to know what it is, what you recommend (DH w/ angina pain)

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Cardiac workup - like to know what it is, what you recommend (DH w/ angina pain)

Posted by Jan on May 29, 2002 at 02:22:54:

Hi Walt. My DH has a dr. appointment tomorrow, for worrisome chest pains. He's never had this type of chest pain before - says it feels like angina is described to feel [of course angina *IS* a fancy word for "chest pain"]

He's seeing his ACAM doctor. (He had a course of chelation 5 years ago - after getting scared when his brother had a heart attack at age 48 - but has not been that great in his health habits since that time.)

This is the first time he's had any indication of heart problems of his own.

I told him to request a test for intracellular magnesium tomorrow. Do you agree that this is a good time for it?

The dr. ALWAYS does an EKG when he goes in for a checkup. Should he request a stress EKG (treadmill) test at this time (if this is not done)? What other kinds of tests are involved? I keep hearing of people having excessive tests done for heart problems, but don't know what "excessive" might be. Anyway not to second-guess this doctor for he is good, but he (and I) would like to be better educated as to specifics. What IS a "cardiac workup" after all? What would you offer? (pt. presenting with angina pain)

The angina pain BTW is intermittent, not consistent. Sometimes at rest, sometimes upon exertion.

He was perusing this site last week for the first time, and I encouraged him to do so again, but I'm not a nag. :) So I am just seeing what I can learn for tomorrow. Thank you for any insight.



Re: Cardiac workup - like to know what it is, what you recommend (DH w/ angina pain)

Posted by Jackie on May 29, 2002 at 09:49:05:

In Reply to: Cardiac workup - like to know what it is, what you recommend (DH w/ angina pain) posted by Jan on May 29, 2002 at 02:22:54:

I am 37 and had "cardiac work up" last year due to pvc's. I am otherwise healthy. Cardiac work-up can mean different things. I believe with chest pain a stress test would be appropriate, but I am not a dr. You can ask for the mag test, but at least my cardiologist was clueless as to how to even do that. I have pac's and pvc's and taking 100 mg. mag. glycinate (Metagenics) works for me. I notice that when I don't take it I get pvc's and muscle twitching.
My cardiologist did not believe the mag. was an issue, but I am certain beyond a doubt that it is.

I will tell you that the cardiologist wanted to keep me on 25 mg. beta blocker that I probably do not benefit from. I am down to 12 mg. per day and would like to be off it completely soon. What I have learned from this site and the books recommended here is that a lot of these symptoms are from stress and poor diet and lack of exercise. I really try to do SR and eat right and take good multi vitamins plus mag. and exercise every day. The key is to listen to the message your body is trying to send you.

You do, however, have to rule out anything with the heart, so good luck with the tests. Dr. Stoll's book and Mind as Healer, Mind as Slayer, and The Healing Power of Whole Foods all were full of wisdom and knowledge. Give them a try too.

Good Luck.



Re: Cardiac workup - like to know what it is, what you recommend (DH w/ angina pain)

Posted by Jan on May 30, 2002 at 07:01:04:

In Reply to: Re: Cardiac workup - like to know what it is, what you recommend (DH w/ angina pain) posted by Jackie on May 29, 2002 at 09:49:05:

Thanks for your reply Jackie. He had the appt. this morning and diagnosis was that minor heart attack (myocardial infarction) HAS occurred. This was by comparing his EKG of 3 weeks ago (from yearly checkup) which was normal, and his EKG of today. He feels fine today and wonders how you can feel fine if you just had a heart attack?? But I guess this is many people's experience. He can pinpoint the day it must have happened out of the different days he had the chest pain, this was the worst day. (He stayed home and kept quiet and I went scouting all over town for some good magnesium in case this would help, which was not easy - it was Sunday and almost nothing but magnesium oxide was to be found, but I did find some magnesium malate.) What's a revelation is that you can have a heart attack and not even know it if it's a "minor" one as this apparently was (minimal damage, hopefully). It can feel like "chest pain" but you don't think it is the real deal, you think it is "maybe just a warning". (He almost canceled the appointment this morning...) There was a clue though, pain radiating down the arm (I think this is a major clue to get checked out).

It is rather scary the advice that if the nitro doesn't work after 4 doses, to check yourself into the hospital. Hospitals are something I rarely think about, but one really should. Of course the doctor will recommend one to keep in mind, but it just brings home how important it is to know how to evaluate a hospital by some objective criteria...which I don't know. Such as one that will do the RIGHT thing in an emergency to minimize damage from heart attack.... whatever that is, but not do MORE than is called for. Of course the idea is to learn about this, so that the hospital will never be necessary.

He now is carrying nitroglycerine with him in case of further angina. The doctor recommends he get a full body scan which will include coronary artery disease screening. The Dr. is holding off on starting any chelation until he sees the results of the scan.

So many questions. (Any precautions, recommendations about full body scans?? Don't they involve radiation?)

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Re: Cardiac workup - like to know what it is. (Archive in coronary.)

Posted by Walt Stoll on May 30, 2002 at 07:32:14:

In Reply to: Cardiac workup - like to know what it is, what you recommend (DH w/ angina pain) posted by Jan on May 29, 2002 at 02:22:54:

Hi, Jan.

Your husband is an example of those who depend upon Chelation to be a cure all and ignore the causes. Chelation is meant to get the person out of the danger range while they change their lifestyle--which he did not do.

I do not believe that his doc would "do an EKG every time he came in" unless he has continued to show either changes consistant with past damage or actual current activity.

Next, the 30 chelations recommended for a course of therapy is only an average; some people need only 20 while a few require 40 and then a maintenance of about one a month WHILE they are correcting their lifestyle.

Listen to Jackie.

The cardiac workup done is dependent upon what the individual intends to DO about the results. The ONLY indication for an arteriogram would be if the individual intended to proceed with a surgical bypass!

A stress test alone, would at least tell the person if he was in immediate danger---whether it was too late to do the lifestyle changes he should have done as soon as he started the previous chelation.

An IV series of magnesium would not be dangerous and just might give him more time to seriously do a 10% fat diet, SR and a walking program (Pritikin Program or Ornish Program) at once. Taking an orally easily absorbed magnesium product would start working about the time he was half way through the IV series.

If he intends to proceed with the surgical option, after carefully doing his homework--something I would never do--, he should consider proceeding to the arteriogram.

Something few surgeons want to talk about is that about 25% of all bypass operations are followed by measurable brain damage; arteries close up faster following surgery than they were before; the high recurrance rate of symptoms within 5 years, etc.

Hope this helps.

Walt



Re: Cardiac workup - like to know what it is. (Archive in coronary.)

Posted by Helping You on May 30, 2002 at 18:24:31:

In Reply to: Re: Cardiac workup - like to know what it is. (Archive in coronary.) posted by Walt Stoll on May 30, 2002 at 07:32:14:

I do not mean to be conflicting with Walt (which I am usually not) but I have to comment on the follow-up diet. Maybe he can explain that position to me but this is my thought. Respective studies have shown that those on a high-fat diet following a heart attack or bypass surgery fared slightly better than those on a low-fat diet but only by a margine. So, I can't see the benefit in limiting fat intake. Instead, I would cut out ALL sources of TRANS FATS like margarines and polyunsaturated vegetable oils like corn, safflower, cottenseed, and canola oil. Stick with monounsaturated fats like olive oil and saturated fats such as coconut oil and animal fats like cream and beef fat. BUT, the source is probably more important. ATKINS is on the right path with his ideas but he does not stress food QUALITY! Buy organic meat or grass-fed meat instead of conventional meat. Anyway, it's in this way that i have a problem with the low-fat therapy. Comments?

-HY



To HY, Walt - Diet for cardiac condition - quantity/quality of fat, etc.

Posted by Jan on May 31, 2002 at 03:00:19:

In Reply to: Re: Cardiac workup - like to know what it is. (Archive in coronary.) posted by Helping You on May 30, 2002 at 18:24:31:

HY - I hear you about specific food quality. Very important. Now, to that perplexing issue of "low-fat or not" -

You said, Respective studies have shown that those on a high-fat diet following a heart attack or bypass surgery fared slightly better than those on a low-fat diet but only by a margin

Interesting, tell me more. What are these studies? How long a period of time did it cover? What kind of high-fat diet was it?

I'm surprised that the high-fat people did well - IF ONLY because I'm assuming that their high-fat diet was nowhere near optimum (Nourishing Traditions style). IF it was typical American foods, it probably included a lot of bad fats and refined carbs. Of course, I could be wrong in assuming it was any such thing.

* * *

Also (this would be a question for Walt),

We have seen (Robert McFerran) that metabolic typing has relevance as to how someone should eat, whether they are sick or well, post-heart attack or not.

I know you (Walt) are strong on the Pritkin/Ornish solution and feel there is good research behind it.... What was the length of time the people stayed on the plan for reversal of their coronary artery disease? I did read that in the long term, it was not that healthy for some of the people in various ways - because of the lack of EFA's, for one thing (Anne Louise Gittleman's testimony).

Perhaps the Pritikin/Ornish works its magic as a healing diet in the same way that macrobiotics often does? Fantastic for healing in the short-term, but not to be sustained for the long-term? (unless the person is an Agriculturalist by nature)? I'm just theorizing and trying to reconcile some inconsistencies.

Phew. I'm not feeling very lucid tonight. Hope this was understandable, as to my concerns.



Re: Cardiac workup - like to know what it is. (Archive in coronary.)

Posted by Jan on May 31, 2002 at 05:21:51:

In Reply to: Re: Cardiac workup - like to know what it is. (Archive in coronary.) posted by Walt Stoll on May 30, 2002 at 07:32:14:

Walt, in my other message I wrote that he did have a minor heart attack, so is proceeding from there. He has no intention to do a bypass and thus no desire to do the angiogram. I think that a person "buys into" the idea of that - he has not bought into it. As I wrote, the doctor recommends a full body scan for further diagnosis.

He is at least not in the denial his brother was, who in the hospital after his first attack, slipped out in the hall from the recovery room and lit up a cigarette! (My husband does not smoke.)

And as far as the wellness he should have been practicing - yes. You are right and nothing I can say will change that directly. I can only serve as a good (or bad) example. I think I have been both. I have been so confused about wellness myself... and on a steep learning curve myself. I think that calm patience (towards both of us) is my best attitude. I thank you for answering on the technical points too...

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Re: Cardiac workup - like to know what it is. (Archive in coronary.)

Posted by Joanie on May 31, 2002 at 07:54:48:

In Reply to: Re: Cardiac workup - like to know what it is. (Archive in coronary.) posted by Helping You on May 30, 2002 at 18:24:31:

Actually, HY, Atkins has modified his plan of late to include nuts (after the first two weeks) and is now against the use of aspartame. He has also now limited cheese to a few ounces a day. He still advocates soy, but at least he's going in the right direction. See the link.

Joanie


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Re: Cardiac workup - like to know what it is. (Archive in coronary.)

Posted by Walt Stoll on May 31, 2002 at 16:04:49:

In Reply to: Re: Cardiac workup - like to know what it is. (Archive in coronary.) posted by Helping You on May 30, 2002 at 18:24:31:

Hi, HY.

The AHA has done it's best to confuse the issue--in my opinion!

It all depends upon your definition of a % fat diet. MY definition of a low fat diet, with anyone trying to clean out his arteries, is LESS THAN 10% fat in the diet for at least a year (Pritikin). With some one trying to clean out his arteries, anything over 15% is a "high fat diet".

One might read the ORIGINAL "President's Commission on Dietary Fat", that was totally destroyed for political and economic special interests, report. Also read the dissenting report by the blue-ribbon members that resigned in protest. The original report recommended less than 15% total fat for everyone wanting to be the healthiest and the political machinations ended up with the presently recommended 30% that is the cause of the problem. The cardiologists are still laughing all the way to the bank!

Let us know what you learn.

Hope this helps.

Walt

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Re: To HY, Walt - Diet for cardiac condition - quantity/quality of fat, etc.

Posted by Jan on May 31, 2002 at 18:19:27:

In Reply to: To HY, Walt - Diet for cardiac condition - quantity/quality of fat, etc. posted by Jan on May 31, 2002 at 03:00:19:

Hi, Helping You. Well, I did find this in the Robt. McFerran archives, which gives some additional insight into this.

(begin quote)

Posted by Walt Stoll on June 21, 1999 at 11:47:25:

In Reply to: Re: Pritikin or Ornish program for H/Gs - Why am I NOT a H/G? posted by RocketHealer Jim++ on June 20, 1999 at 07:57:05:

Dear RocketHealer Jim.

I just couldn't let this go on any longer without doing a little steering.

The 10% fat diet (a la Pritikin & Ornish) is a "therapeutic" diet designed to reverse a potentially fatal condition. No one knowledgable thinks it is a "healthy" diet. As a matter of fact, if one stays on the diet, once the atherosclerotic condition is reversed (about a year or 2--depending on how well the person does the program)), they will get sick.

Pritikin did not understand that. All he knew was that his coronary artery disease went away with a 10% diet & he stayed on it. He died of cancer and, for the last 10 years of his life, looked like death warmed over. His autopsy showed the coronary arteries to be as healthy as a baby's. "The operation was a success but the patient died."

The body needs at least 10% of its calories as fat or it cannot make hormones. If one eats LESS than 10% the body has to scavage for the rest. One of the places it takes it from is what is stored in the walls of the arteries (atherosclerosis). Once there is no longer any stored fat, the person has to increase the fat content to 15% of calories ingested for a maintenance diet to prevent recurrence AND maintain health! [emphasis added]

The agriculturist and HG diets are diets for the health of THAT individual. It is true that "healthy people" do not have atherosclerosis. HOWEVER, once they DO, it takes too long to reverse it just by going to a healthy diet for that person. Remember, these people are at risk of sudden death at any moment.

Is this making any sense? If one (who already has coronary artery disease) wants to do the healthy HG or agri diet I see no problem with that so long as they understand WHY the Pritikin Diet works & sees that BOTH are satisfied.

Talk at me!

Walt (end quote)



- Diet for atherosclerotic conditions/quality of fats & (Archive in atheroscle.)

Posted by Walt Stoll on June 01, 2002 at 06:52:01:

In Reply to: To HY, Walt - Diet for cardiac condition - quantity/quality of fat, etc. posted by Jan on May 31, 2002 at 03:00:19:

Thanks, Jan.

One year is the safe time (and effective time) for the Pritikin Diet, which is a therapeutic diet and not a healthy one for the long haul. THEN, the person should switch to a 15% fat diet.

ALL this time the individual should be taking a EFA supplement--forever; the maintenance dose of which to be determined by trial and error (see the EFA protocol on the home page.

Hope this helps.

Walt

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Diet for atherosclerosis - quantity/quality of fat, etc. Archive.

Posted by Walt Stoll on June 01, 2002 at 06:54:23:

In Reply to: To HY, Walt - Diet for cardiac condition - quantity/quality of fat, etc. posted by Jan on May 31, 2002 at 03:00:19:

Correction of title for previous post. GREMLINS!

Walt

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- Diet for atherosclerosis- quantity/quality of fat: Archive in atherosclerosis

Posted by Walt Stoll on June 01, 2002 at 06:58:46:

In Reply to: Re: To HY, Walt - Diet for cardiac condition - quantity/quality of fat, etc. posted by Jan on May 31, 2002 at 18:19:27:

Thanks, Jan!

Where did you find this?

Namaste`

Walt



Re: - Diet for atherosclerosis- quantity/quality of fat: Archive in atherosclerosis

Posted by Jan on June 02, 2002 at 04:08:45:

In Reply to: - Diet for atherosclerosis- quantity/quality of fat: Archive in atherosclerosis posted by Walt Stoll on June 01, 2002 at 06:58:46:

Walt, it was in the Robt. McFerran diet archives - link below.

This is making more sense. Yet, let's see how this would work out......

When you cut THAT far down on fat (10%), you have to make up for it with something else - protein and carbs.

You can scarf down no more than ~120g of lean protein per day before getting extremely uncomfortable (which is ~500 calories). You are limited to 10% fat, so out of a 2000 calorie diet, that's another 200 calories for the fat. That's just 700 calories, which leaves you with another 1300 calories to make up....from what? You MIGHT eat that much vegetables and fruits - although you'd be eating for hours on end (so much chewing). So, you are left with dense carbs.

However, dense carbs are simply problematic for some metabolisms (H/G); some researchers conclude that grains are a problem for MOST people.

But I know - "consider the alternative" -- Atherosclerosis is not a nice condition to live with. (or die with). You would do this if you had to.

Helping You's is a wonderful diet in so many respects but would not reverse THIS condition :( [at least from what you are telling me]

For me as a H/G, this is a purely hypothetical question. (knock on wood) but with my husband's recent incident I have been giving considerable thought to it...

(Did anyone out there actually do this? H/G and used the Pritikin diet? If you are out there, I would love to hear your experience, and I would LIKE to hear that it was positive.)



Re: - Diet for atherosclerosis- quantity/quality of fat: Archive in atherosclerosis

Posted by Walt Stoll on June 03, 2002 at 08:34:13:

In Reply to: Re: - Diet for atherosclerosis- quantity/quality of fat: Archive in atherosclerosis posted by Jan on June 02, 2002 at 04:08:45:

Thanks, Jan.

The THERAPEUTIC 10% fat diet (Pritikin) is the only one proven to actually reverse atherosclerosis.

There are MANY cook books that prove that a 10% fat diet is not only very palatable but that there is no reason that anyone cannot stay on one for at least a year (the usual time needed before switching to the maintenance 15% diet). Fat people will find that they will lose weight on this diet but skinny people do not lose much before stabilizing and regaining what they have lost.

Hope this helps.

Walt

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