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Every single problem on this board is "solved" (according to Stoll) by the three-no four-no five-legged stool

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Every single problem on this board is "solved" (according to Stoll) by the three-no four-no five-legged stool

Posted by Jenna on February 20, 2001 at 17:43:29:

And if it doesn't work, you're "not doing it right". The SR thing is a good idea--anyone could use some meditation or stress relief.

However, I have two friends with PCOS and SR aone just ain't gonna do the trick. One of my friends is just going on an antiandrogen but she doesn't want to because she's been on it before and it makes her pee all the time (that's annoying). And another friend went on a drug to control the insulin.

And yes, it certainly does seem like there have to be a lot of variables present to diagnose PCOS. It's not like there's just one test that can be done to say you have it.

Have you went to an endocrinologist yet?

I sometimes wonder if I have it too because I have a few of those out-of-place hairs and have had the acne problem (the pill and another drug have pretty much cleared that up too though).

One last thing, I don't agree with the whole LGS/Candida thing on here either. Every single health problem people supposedly have on this board is blamed on it. Doesn't sit right with me, either.



Re: Every single problem on this board is "solved" (according to Stoll) by the three-no four-no five-legged stool

Posted by beegs on February 20, 2001 at 18:18:57:

In Reply to: Every single problem on this board is "solved" (according to Stoll) by the three-no four-no five-legged stool posted by Jenna on February 20, 2001 at 17:43:29:


hey girls, i feel sorry for you. believe me. but i honestly believe that the problems you are talking about, are better dealt with by chinese medecine, see a good tcm practicioner, and dont settle for herbal pills, they are far to weak. get a decoction from dry herbs. these doctors, if you find a good one, diagnose by the coating on the tongue, the color of the eyes, the three pulses, etc. it can be very accurate, if done by the right doc. i sort of buy into the candida and leaky gut, but not as the cause of every illness, and i also would like to see these people that were helped. i wish you luck, but try tcm(traditional chinese medecine)

Follow Ups:


Why LGS is a common diagnosis here

Posted by Bill on February 21, 2001 at 10:05:09:

In Reply to: Every single problem on this board is "solved" (according to Stoll) by the three-no four-no five-legged stool posted by Jenna on February 20, 2001 at 17:43:29:

Hi Jenna,

One last thing, I don't agree with the whole LGS/Candida thing on here either. Every single health problem people supposedly have on this board is blamed on it. Doesn't sit right with me, either.

It's a very good point - here's my (brief) take on it. There is more detail in the articles on stress and lgs available from the main pages, and of course there are chapters and sketches available in the book.

The reason it seems that a disproportionate amount of health problems are blamed on LGS becomes more clear when you think about the people who visit this board and the effect stress has on the body.

There are lots and lots of illnesses out there. The body heals many of them, some with the help of drugs. But some illnesses hang on for weeks/months/years. Person goes from doctor to doctor. Doctor is unable to cure, but prescribes drugs to lessen the symptoms. These illnesses we call "chronic illnesses". Acne, GERD, Interstitial Cystitis, etc etc.

Many (perhaps most) people who come to this board have already been to their doctors, realized the docs have been unable to cure their chronic illness, and are doing their own research, hoping to find something their docs didn't know -- ANYTHING to get some relief.

It's Dad's position that all or nearly all chronic illness that is not curable by conventional medicine is caused by lifestyle. Hence the three-legged lifestyle modification program: SR, exercise, and diet. But the biggest problem in today's world is chronic stress.

Stress causes the "fight or flight" response. Blood moves away from digestive organs and into large muscles in preparation for a fight or flight. CHRONIC stress means your digestive organs chronically are deprived of blood. This causes the intestinal lining to get thinner and thinner, until you have a "leaky gut" which allows material to leak into your bloodstream that is not sufficiently broken down (digested). This can trigger an allergic reaction depending on the individual's reserves.

If a person has good genetics, good diet, good exercise, etc, it may take a long time (or maybe forever) for the "leaky gut" to cause noticeable symptoms.

The point is that LGS doesn't cause illness. Chronic stress causes illness.

Also, SR is not a quick fix. Although people will usually notice benefits immediately, SR must be done regularly and correctly for at least 6-24 months to have therapeutic effect (that is, to cure chronic illness). If a doc gave you 10 days of antibiotic, and you took it for 3 days, felt better, stopped, then got sick again, would you say "that antibiotic alone just ain't gonna do the trick"?

When we tell people "get started curing your LGS", it's shorthand for "start doing some reading and see if you come to the same conclusion we did" - significant lifestyle changes are required to beat chronic illness.

Bill





Bill's post is a gem!! EVERYBODY READ IT!! (nmi)

Posted by Jen B on February 21, 2001 at 10:53:02:

In Reply to: Why LGS is a common diagnosis here posted by Bill on February 21, 2001 at 10:05:09:

thanks, Bill, for taking the time to say this so well~

Follow Ups:


Bill, Thanks for the response but once again... you are NOT listening to my question

Posted by Lisa-chicago on February 21, 2001 at 13:19:50:

In Reply to: Why LGS is a common diagnosis here posted by Bill on February 21, 2001 at 10:05:09:

My question is this. Where are the medical facts. I have truly gone through hell with Doctors, but I have all the test results. I cannot believe that I am the only person on this board that would think to obtain all of the initial test results, apply SR and then test again. Once again BILL, you response is nothing more than mumbo jumbo brush off of "trust me it really works". If it REALLY did work then why hasn't ONE SINGLE PERSON on this board shown initial test results (before SR) and test results afte 6 - 24 months of SR. I mean even Dr. Stoll himself, does not post his own initial blood work, urinalysyis etc. Wouldn't it make sense that if this worked, he as a dr. would have measured SOMETING, cholesterol, WBC, RBC, etc. before SR and then repeated the tests after SR. Or are you trying to imply that I am ABSOLUTELY THE ONLY PERSON ON THIS BOARD that understands the concept of a sound evidence coupled with how the patient feels.

Once again, show me the facts and discuss how the patient feels. Then I think we can began an INTELLIGENT debate on whether SR really works!!!!!!!!!

Lisa_chicago



Re: Bill, Thanks for the response but once again... you are NOT listening to my question

Posted by Frank on February 21, 2001 at 14:32:44:

In Reply to: Bill, Thanks for the response but once again... you are NOT listening to my question posted by Lisa-chicago on February 21, 2001 at 13:19:50:

Hi Lisa,

I'm not sure that this is exactly what you're looking for but I would suggest you pick up a copy of The Relaxation Response by Herbert Benson(It's like $5. ) In it he sites numerous experiments where practicing the relaxation response(sr) helped bloodpresure, hypertension, ulcers and some other ills. In the back of the book he has the bibliographies of these studdies so you could find them.

As for asking for proof on this board, I'm not sure what to tell you. As for me, I started sr because I was having chronic heartburn due to GErd. The doc initially diagnosed this by sticking a scope down my throat(an expensive, uncomfortable procedure). With my last check up with the doc I told him how I was feeling much better and only rarely did I have heartburn. Obviously he said that was encouraging. But I don't know what Kind of proof you want, I'm not going to ask the doc to scope me again(nor would he suggets it) if I feel better. That would be silly, expensive, and time consuming. So in my case I can't give you before and after, I can just say I feel alot better.

But again, I want to stress to you that there is research out ther that does measure before and after results(like in the studies in The RElaxation Response) so if you want to find them you ceratinly can. I would suggest doing a little research apart form this board, I think you'll find what you're looking for.



Does SR work or not?

Posted by Bill on February 21, 2001 at 16:27:51:

In Reply to: Bill, Thanks for the response but once again... you are NOT listening to my question posted by Lisa-chicago on February 21, 2001 at 13:19:50:

Hi Lisa,

Very good questions. You sound pretty frustrated. Let me give you my direct response, then share a few other related thoughts.

For medical references, start with

this link refering folks to Harvard Medical School and Pelletier's Mind as Healer, Mind as Slayer.

Here is info about a study on emotions and their effect on the intestinal tract

I found those two doing 10 mins of perusing our extensive SR archives. You will perhaps want to look deeper. Since you mention wishing that individuals would report their own before and after test results, you may be interested in reading individual testimonials. Try testimonial archives. There are some more under interstitial cystitis and other archives. I read several and could find none that reported bloodwork before and after, sorry. However a lot of them were quite detailed regarding the nature of their improvement. And, with or without the bloodwork or urinalysis, we're still talking anecdotal evidence with no controls, aren't we? Not particular satisfying to a scientist.

You may also want to go to the library and look for related research in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA), New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM), or other sources. I visited the JAMA website and they require a fee to read the articles in their archives. But I saw some interesting titles, such as "Investigating Alternative Medicine Therapies in Randomized Controlled Trials" (Arthur Margolin, PhD; S. Kelly Avants, PhD; Herbert D. Kleber, MD
November 11, 1998). The NEJM website also requires a fee to read full text of articles, but I surfed a few mins and very quickly found this little gem which includes references to some very interesting articles from 1993 and earlier. See my next post for one that may impress you.

If you or anyone else would like to put together a list of references to scientific studies, I'll convert it to HTML and post it on our site with a big Thank You.

Also, if you can tell me exactly what kind of research evidence would satisfy you, perhaps together we can investigate whether anyone has done that kind of study, and if not, we can determine WHY they have not.


Now those other related thoughts I promised...

This whole "chronic stress causes chronic illness" approach makes logical sense to me. The only real technical use I can be to people here is to explain the rudimentary logic behind the approach.

My background is computer science - I'm a pretty analytical guy. But I think there are some things that our science and/or culture are unwilling or unable to prove at this point in our evolution, and I'm left to move forward with what I think makes sense. There's a pair of great books by Dean Black that defend the thesis that some truths don't lend themselves to proving via the scientific method. They are Pigs in the Dirt and Health at the Crossroads.

Of course, if you suspect an ulterior motive, that's another matter. But I'm curious what you think it might be.

Bill



from the NEJM site

Posted by Bill on February 21, 2001 at 16:35:28:

In Reply to: Bill, Thanks for the response but once again... you are NOT listening to my question posted by Lisa-chicago on February 21, 2001 at 13:19:50:

Here's the reference from NEJM I promised from my last post.

original page

here's some of the content from the above link:


. . . Twenty years ago, relaxation techniques were not widely used in medicine. A review of the MEDLINE data base reveals that since 1972 more than 2700 articles relating to relaxation techniques have been published in the medical literature. These publications yielded sufficiently encouraging data to result in the widespread therapeutic use of relaxation techniques and the inclusion of this material in medical schools. In fact, relaxation techniques should serve as a model of how to integrate worthy, unconventional therapies into the practice of mainstream medicine.


Richard Friedman, Ph.D.
State University of New York
Stony Brook, NY 11794

Patricia Zuttermeister, M.A.
Mind/Body Medical Institute Deaconess Hospital
Boston, MA 02215

Herbert Benson, M.D.
Deaconess Hospital Harvard Medical School
Boston, MA 02115


Hmm, I wonder if just anybody can reference this "MEDLINE" database? www.medline.com appears to be something else.

Anyway, I hope you have found some of this useful.

Bill




I can relate to you MUCH better than I can to your Dad..

Posted by Jenna on February 21, 2001 at 17:31:44:

In Reply to: Why LGS is a common diagnosis here posted by Bill on February 21, 2001 at 10:05:09:

But, my next question is this...do you have any studies/proof about LGS? That is the part I have the most problems with.



LGS

Posted by Bill on February 21, 2001 at 17:49:30:

In Reply to: I can relate to you MUCH better than I can to your Dad.. posted by Jenna on February 21, 2001 at 17:31:44:

Hi Jenna,

Suggest you play around with the MEDLINE database. I did for 5 mins and came up with a couple...

Here's an article that may be of interest.

Here's another.

Unfortunately those links give minimal info - It seems possible to order the full text - I didn't try that.

I looked up "leaky gut" and found six articles, but none of them seemed to be about treating it with alternative therapies. It may be a matter of trial and error to find the correct wording to use in the search to locate the desired studies, if they exist.

Do you think the explanation makes sense - how chronic stress can cause chronic reduction of blood flow to the gut, causing lining to thin, causing leaky gut?

Bill



Re: Hi Jenna!

Posted by Gwen... on February 21, 2001 at 20:00:11:

In Reply to: Every single problem on this board is "solved" (according to Stoll) by the three-no four-no five-legged stool posted by Jenna on February 20, 2001 at 17:43:29:

Dear Jenna,

Please don't take this the wrong way; I'm just curious. Your last post about PCOS, androgens, SR, etc. sounded so much like a few of my previous posts that I was wondering if you're the "real" Jenna or someone using the Jenna name at your expense trying to draw me out. No, I'm not paranoid (least as far as I know), and no, my real name isn't Gwen. Here's the truth, if someone is in fact out trawling. My real name is Kyra. I used to post here a lot. I come visit here every now and then these days.

Jenna, the following doesn't have anything to do with you. I'm well aware of all the badmouthing and backstabbing and flat-out lying that's been done about me behind the scenes and even once on the board when someone posted an inflammatory post in my name. It drove me off the board in disgust. I then chose to ignore or sidestep the whole thing, both on the board and in response to personal e-mails sent to me in an ostensibly friendly way but actually fishing for information. I put a lot of myself into this board at one time. I'm not into soap operas, though, and I could't watch with detachment when one particularly malicious person chose to act oh so clever and transparently sneaky, ostensibly writing me as a friend but in fact writing poisonous crap about another regular and utterly kind board contributor. So I'm wondering, in the post I'm responding to, is this the real Jenna or the person with so much unresolved shadow that they don't want to look at their own pain and have to project it on other people in flaming anger fits? Female-gendered person I'm refering to, you know who you are. I don't hold anger toward you, but I finally felt like I had to call things for what they are. If this is the way you run your life, how will you ever possibly be truly happy? Please don't run from yourself and smear others to protect yourself from your own feelings. Ultimately, that never works. Peace.

With love and regret for any pain that I may have caused anyone,
Kyra



Re: Does SR work or not?. I don't have time to review your info this week but I will next week...

Posted by Lisa_chicago on February 22, 2001 at 14:23:49:

In Reply to: Does SR work or not? posted by Bill on February 21, 2001 at 16:27:51:

Bill:

You've given me a lot to review and I can't this week but i will review the info next week.

As far as your comment that some things can't be proven...
I worked as a chemist for 10 years. I solved problems that colleagues who had been with the company for 17 years were unable to solve. I believe I was successful simply because I kept saying "Why?" and "Show me the proof". My professional experience has been when someone says trust me it works without showing any type of data, they generally do not have a complete solution. This does not mean that they are not intelligent or can't accomplish anything. it simply means that they stopped asking "WHY?" and "SHOW ME THE PROOF" too soon.

Again, I can't believe that I am the only person on this board that thought to get all of the initial test results, apply SR, then test again. If this were true then it would mean that most people put more time/effort into selecting a car then in selecting a qualified health care professional. this I find very hard to believe.

Lisa_chicago



Frank, Thank-you for your response. I am not able to read the Relaxation Response this week but I will be able to begin reading next week

Posted by Lisa_chicag on February 22, 2001 at 14:28:46:

In Reply to: Re: Bill, Thanks for the response but once again... you are NOT listening to my question posted by Frank on February 21, 2001 at 14:32:44:

Frank:

Thank-you for reminding me to read one of the books that Dr. Stoll has recommended several times on this site. I am not able to this week but I will be able to begin this reading next week.

Thanks again,

Lisa_chicago



Jenna: You're firend might want to check out www.thyroid.about.com

Posted by Lisa_chicago on February 22, 2001 at 16:18:34:

In Reply to: Every single problem on this board is "solved" (according to Stoll) by the three-no four-no five-legged stool posted by Jenna on February 20, 2001 at 17:43:29:

and she might also want to check out the book "Solved: the riddle of Illness" by Dr. Steprhen Langer. I think that many women diagnosed with PCOS actually are hypothyroid. these two references may help to explain why I am beganing to investigate this theory.

I would welcome and appreciate any and all suggestions and debates on this theory.

Lisa_chicago



Thanks--I will give both of them the book information

Posted by Jenna on February 22, 2001 at 17:35:14:

In Reply to: Jenna: You're firend might want to check out www.thyroid.about.com posted by Lisa_chicago on February 22, 2001 at 16:18:34:

I think you rock! You go girl!

Follow Ups:


Wow Gwen....

Posted by Jenna on February 22, 2001 at 17:39:59:

In Reply to: Re: Hi Jenna! posted by Gwen... on February 21, 2001 at 20:00:11:

As far as I've seen, no one has posted as me that isn't me. I am such a unique individual that it would be hard for someone to emulate me! :-)

People have emailed you trying to get information from you? That IS strange. If I were you, I'd keep my email information private. That's kinda scary. I would not like it if someone posted something crappy and used my name either. (Lord knows my posts can be quite inflammatory on their own anyway! LOL)

And I have two friends (possibly three) who have PCOS so I know what kind of hell you're going through.

I think you're doing the right thing by standing up to people that are harassing you. In my opinion, that's the only way to be.

Follow Ups:


No that doesn't make sense to me at all

Posted by Jenna on February 22, 2001 at 17:43:05:

In Reply to: LGS posted by Bill on February 21, 2001 at 17:49:30:

Especially when people like Rich say that some people are BORN with LGS and that is supposed to explain children with chronic diseases. Seems to me that LGS would be something it would take years and years to develop and if it is caused by chronic stress--how would kids have it? The whole thing leaves me bewildered and leaves me with plenty of questions.



For Dr. Stoll-chronic constipation in 11-y-o girl

Posted by Wendy on February 22, 2001 at 17:47:00:

In Reply to: Why LGS is a common diagnosis here posted by Bill on February 21, 2001 at 10:05:09:

Dr. Stoll,
I read the section on lactulose that you suggested. I also read some bad things about it on the
internet - that it could cause diarhhea, laxative dependence, and other problems - I'm a little
worried about trying it. Can you only get it with a perscription? Does anyone out there have any experience with it? My daughter is 11 (small for her age) and I don't know how much to give her.
Thank you for your help on the phone. Just an update - 1) I made an appointment for her to be tested
for dairy and wheat allergies on Friday. I'll let you know what I find out. 2) We now give her 3
teaspoons of psyllium, acidopholus (14 billion per day) and 1 TBL of Kondremul per day. Flaxseed oil is something that is hard for me to give her and I might try the powder - how much, considering all of the above meds she's getting? I thought I'd gradually add more metamucil if all this doesn't work. Will she have less of a gassy response to all these powders if I just increase the doseage by a teaspoon every week as I've been doing? I want to do this gradually so as not to cause her to have stooling accidents or gas attacks at school. Are you sure she has the leaky gut syndrome and the two allergies? (It couldn't be just a wheat allergy?) I've been told that celiac disease
sometimes mascarades as lactose intolerance, which she was diagnosed as having almost two years ago, but she doesn't have the symptoms of celiac disease. Please give me all your thoughts on the above. I didn't find an answer to this message that I sent yesterday as an update to someone's message. Is this the right way to send a msg? I never
used a bulletin board before! Thank you very much for all your help!



Re: No that doesn't make sense to me at all

Posted by R. on February 22, 2001 at 20:27:06:

In Reply to: No that doesn't make sense to me at all posted by Jenna on February 22, 2001 at 17:43:05:

Perhaps, being under stress while being in the mother has anything to do with that? Children are born with all sort of defects, so why not LGS?



Re: Lisa_chicago

Posted by June.one on February 22, 2001 at 20:44:56:

In Reply to: Frank, Thank-you for your response. I am not able to read the Relaxation Response this week but I will be able to begin reading next week posted by Lisa_chicag on February 22, 2001 at 14:28:46:

Hi, Lisa

Skepticism keeps lively debate from dying off. The Benson book is such a good one for you to read. When you know the feeling when you achieve this physiologic response, you will know it and if you weren't already sure you were getting there, you will learn that special feeling - and best of all there are so many different ways to do this, even evoking that response immediately if you ever find yourself in a situation that necessitates calming down quickly.

I haven't participated in the discussion about all this but I will tell you that the combination approach including relaxation has helped me immensely. Maybe you read this before, but my doctor (GP) was so amazed at my progress, said he knew it was nothing he had done to help me, and encouraged me to just keep up what I was doing since it was obviously helping me. I don't have any hard scientific evidence, but the way I've learned things suits me and my improvements negate any questions about continuing. Maybe its not a cure-all (who knows?) but it seems to be part of what's working for me. Enjoy the book when you get to it.

June



Re: Does SR work or not?. I don't have time to review your info this week but I will next week...

Posted by R. on February 22, 2001 at 21:03:23:

In Reply to: Re: Does SR work or not?. I don't have time to review your info this week but I will next week... posted by Lisa_chicago on February 22, 2001 at 14:23:49:

There is enough evidence to demostrate positive physiological effects that relaxation has on living creatures. So I guess one reason why nobody on this board didn't bother to look for or do before and after tests is because they might have been thinking they would get some benefit from practicing SR even if their condition doesn't resolve. If you ask people (I mean customer service) at www.centerpointe.com, they can probably get you test results that shows that SR (using their soundtracks) changes hormonal levels, as shown by saliva tests. You can read about it here. Then, if you search for studies that correlate DHEA, cortisol, and melatonin with health and diseases, you may be able to gain more trust in SR. I didn't bother to read your original post, so maybe I misunderstood what you're looking for. Are you looking specifically for a scientific study about using SR to treat PCOS? What if you don't find one? Will you conclude that SR is worth your time? You know, egg yolk mask are used to improve acne problems, but I doubt that there is a study that validates this method. However, some of those that try it anyway find it very effective.



Re: No that doesn't make sense to me at all--Might not make sense but it happens.

Posted by B.B. on February 22, 2001 at 21:17:32:

In Reply to: Re: No that doesn't make sense to me at all posted by R. on February 22, 2001 at 20:27:06:


Hi, Jenna

It might not make sense to you, however, it does happen. There are babies born with GERD, and other ailments as well.




Re: hey Lisa....

Posted by Kyra (was Gwen) on February 22, 2001 at 22:50:00:

In Reply to: Jenna: You're firend might want to check out www.thyroid.about.com posted by Lisa_chicago on February 22, 2001 at 16:18:34:

Hi Lisa,

Here's a possible piece(s) in the puzzle. You mentioned in a prior post that your cortisol levels are high. High cortisol levels can suppress TSH test results, thereby lulling the doc into thinking that one has a low TSH and is therefore euthyroid. High cortisols can also be symptomatic of 11-beta hydroxylase deficiency (either full or partial deficiency), which relates to adrenal cortex malfunction. There's a great article titled something like "adrenal hyperplasia, not a zebra" which gives good info. "adrenal" and "zebra" will find it for you on google.com

Given that the stress response starts at the hypothalamus, and that all endocrine glands are involved if stress is prolonged or if there's an inherent genetic anomaly, I've come to wonder about the feedback loops/inhibition involved in thyroid disorders/adrenal disorders/PCOS. From my own experience a PCOS/adrenal/and/or thyroid-disordered woman is a breed apart. We fall through the cracks of acupuncture and Chinese herbal medicine too:) I can meditate until the cows come home, reach extraordinary depths of something or other in that state, and come out of it calm for a minute or two only. I've practiced meditation for many years and would never give it up. It does make me wonder, though, that given all the meditation I've done, why has my hypothalamic stress not been released to the point that I'm seeing positive endocrine changes reflected in both the way I feel and in blood workups? What I've come to think at this point is that when you're dealing with a bunk genetic deck (which I feel that PCOS in particular is indicative of), you may well need exogenous therapies (translate, pass me the Armour thyroid or prednisone please) in order to reverse the feedback inhibition going back up to the hypothalamus, and vice versa.

I think there's an epidemic of occult hypothyroidism/adrenal disorders/PCOS happening at least in the US, and may well relate to hormonal imbalance influencing hormone production at about the 10th week of gestation (see "Our Stolen Futures", an extraordinary and frightening book for more.)
Also hot off the presses and allegedly brilliant (translate: I haven't read it yet and can't give a real opinion) is Elizabeth Vliet MD's "Screaming to be Heard." Also, here's a link to CAH sisters (congenital adrenal hyperplasia), which is THE best link I've found on women with adrenal problems.
Many of them have concommitant PCOS. Best of luck, "cyster."

http://www.members.home.com/celticfox/CAHsisters.htm

Love, Kyra



Inspiring

Posted by Bill on February 23, 2001 at 00:09:01:

In Reply to: Re: Does SR work or not?. I don't have time to review your info this week but I will next week... posted by Lisa_chicago on February 22, 2001 at 14:23:49:

Lisa,

I congratulate you on your tough approach to problem solving. I would imagine that your old employer misses you.

I would suspect that most people on this board are more interested in feeling better than they are in proving to others that a specific approach works, but I could be wrong.

Bill



Re: For Dr. Stoll-chronic constipation in 11-y-o girl

Posted by kmd on February 23, 2001 at 08:47:32:

In Reply to: For Dr. Stoll-chronic constipation in 11-y-o girl posted by Wendy on February 22, 2001 at 17:47:00:

Hi Wendy,

To post a new message (on a new subject such as yours), go to the top right hand corner of the main BB page and click on the new message link.

My son has been taking lactulose, he's much younger than your daughter however. It seems to help and I've not heard of a dependency problem. I'd be interested to know more. However, I'd recommend you read the article on this site about constipation and stool withholding in children. It holds THE ANSWER to your daughter's problem. Go to the upper right hand corner of links (same one for posting a new message) and click on Articles on Health. A combination of mineral oil at night, and fiber throughout the day will do the trick so well you will be amazed. I prefer the orange flavored sugar-free Citrucel to the Metamucil but the choice is yours. I find that if I will sprinkle some of the Citrucel into his drinks he will "go" every day.

About the allergy testing for dairy and wheat, your conventional doc will probably do the standard allergy testing which will miss about 95% of all sensitivities that are present. If you really want to find out about these foods (a good idea), I would suggest doing trial elimination of both. Make sure you study ahead of time what all needs to be eliminated so you can run a perfect trial to be sure of the results. ALL casein and ALL gluten containing foods must be COMPLETELY eliminated. This is not easy but if it holds the key it would be worth it.

Celiac disease requires a biopsy to diagnose. Lactose intolerance is entirely different than an allergy or a sensitivity and it simply involves not having the enzyme to digest milk products.

Hope this helps!



Re: hey Lisa....

Posted by Donald Leffingwell on February 23, 2001 at 11:23:02:

In Reply to: Re: hey Lisa.... posted by Kyra (was Gwen) on February 22, 2001 at 22:50:00:

I couldn't get your link to work.
Try this one.




Re: Inspiring

Posted by leon cavallo on February 23, 2001 at 13:08:57:

In Reply to: Inspiring posted by Bill on February 23, 2001 at 00:09:01:

well said ! the search for "proof" can be the objective , illusory road block !

Follow Ups:


Re: Thanks, Donald! (nmi)

Posted by Kyra on February 23, 2001 at 13:28:39:

In Reply to: Re: hey Lisa.... posted by Donald Leffingwell on February 23, 2001 at 11:23:02:

nmi

Follow Ups:


Re: Bill, Thanks for the response but once again... you are NOT listening to my question

Posted by Walt Stoll on February 23, 2001 at 13:46:33:

In Reply to: Bill, Thanks for the response but once again... you are NOT listening to my question posted by Lisa-chicago on February 21, 2001 at 13:19:50:

Come on, Lisa.

You just want someone else to do your homework for you. There are many references in the archives alone about this.

Walt



Re: from the NEJM site (Archive in SR.)

Posted by Walt Stoll on February 23, 2001 at 14:16:27:

In Reply to: from the NEJM site posted by Bill on February 21, 2001 at 16:35:28:

Thanks, Bill.

There are SO many references NOW available that I don't bother responding to those who want ME to provide proof. They have to be blind to not be able to find more than they want to see.

However, I do appreciate others willing to steer people in a good direction.

Namaste`

Walt

Follow Ups:


Re: For Dr. Stoll and kmd

Posted by Wendy on February 23, 2001 at 14:26:42:

In Reply to: Re: For Dr. Stoll-chronic constipation in 11-y-o girl posted by kmd on February 23, 2001 at 08:47:32:

Thank you very much, kmd, for taking the time to comment - I appreciate it so much! Yes, I had read his article, have been following it the way I described, and with the Kondremul and metamucil I think I'm seeing an improvement. Today we had her tested for various food allergies at a chiropractic center. What an interesting test! They used vials of the different substances (including each type of cheese) and did a muscle strength test. They found that she does indeed have a dairy sensitivity, but fortunately not a wheat sensitivity. What a relief that was. She was even tested for 100 Lactaid milk which she is not sensitive to, so she can have the lactaid products. I feel that we're making progress. The practicioner recommended that we get a stool sample and get it analyzed for leaky gut syndrome and bacteria problems, so I plan to do that too.
I felt so isolated up to now with this problem because in all these years there wasn't a single doctor that could help us with it. The worst advice was giving her loads of Kondremul(mineral oil) but not with a high fiber diet. Now in one week, Dr. Stoll gave me this great advice that turned out to be right on the mark (except for the wheat!) and kmd responded to my bulletin. Thank you both - it's so nice to know that there is help out there after all!
P.S. Dr. Stoll, if you see this, please comment to this and the other msg that I posted. Thank you!



Kyra, WOW!!!! Thanks for all the fantastic information!!!!!

Posted by Lisa_chicago on February 23, 2001 at 14:30:22:

In Reply to: Re: hey Lisa.... posted by Kyra (was Gwen) on February 22, 2001 at 22:50:00:

Kyra,

How can I thank-you for your help. There was so much information in your message I printed it off the computer so I could spend a few days reviewing everything.

In particular, I am impressed you remenbered my elevated cortisol levels and brought up the TSH supression. ALso, I don't think that I have ever been tested for 11-beta hydroxylase deficiency. In fact I need to look this up (for definition).
When I have completed this I will respond again.

Thank-you!!!!!!!!!!!

Lisa_chicago

Follow Ups:


Dr. Stoll, I am not asking someone else to do my homework....

Posted by Lisa_chicago on February 23, 2001 at 14:54:25:

In Reply to: Re: Bill, Thanks for the response but once again... you are NOT listening to my question posted by Walt Stoll on February 23, 2001 at 13:46:33:

I am doing testing, practicing SR and doing much research on PCOS, SR, Hypothyroidism. I just can't believe that no-one else has approached their own wellness in this manner.

Dr. Stoll, I say the following with all due respect...

Again, I understand your response. As a young adult, when I had to present my theories and facts to the investigative board where I did research, I felt, initially, that they were unfairly attacking my intelligence. And in fact in some cases they were ... however, as time went on, I began to realize that all the questions and the thirst for data that my colleagus had was helping me to form a better investigative mind. To ask the really tough questions of "Why?" and "How do we fix it or improve upon it"
I have faithfully read your bulletin board for the last year and 1/2 and I have to say I'm more than a little shoccked by your response. It has been my experience that when someone has thoroughly researched a topic, they are delighted to answer questions, state facts and are even more open to have their theories seriously debated and put to the test. There is nothing more thrilling to a scientist then having someone challenge your theories, debate the integrity of their hypothesis and then finally say "You were right... this is a sound and bulletproof theory." This is particularly thrilling if the resarch benefits humankind.

It has been my experience that when a scientist or researcher is not willing to state facts show data, in particular data from their own personal experience or data that they themselves have gathered... Well to put it bluntly, these types of people generally don't have a true solution. This does not make them bad or unintelligent, it just means they need someone on their team who is not afraid to ask the tough questions of "Why?" and is not afraid of doing the hard work of testing and gathering the data.

It has been my experience that people in the USA will spend more time selecting a car than they will in selecting compentent health care professionals. I think this board is a wonderful opportunity for all of us to express our theories/concerns etc. I applaud you for having the courage to establish such a wonderful site and I look forward to being a long time reader/participant.

Lisa_chicago



Ouch!!! The egg yolk comment was a little rough but...

Posted by Lisa-chicago on February 23, 2001 at 15:10:56:

In Reply to: Re: Does SR work or not?. I don't have time to review your info this week but I will next week... posted by R. on February 22, 2001 at 21:03:23:

R.
Thanks for your response. It's clear that I haven't truly stated all of my reasons for doing all of this work.

First:I am starting initial test results on myself, hormones, CVC differential fasting insulin etc. and then I am going to apply SR, then retest every few months. As someone that enjoys researching, I have found it is good general practice to first review any and all past experiments. This will help me to improve my techniques, expand/decrease my investigation etc. i.e, learn from others mistakes &/or successes.
You see R., whatever condition I have, PCOS, hypothroidism etc. has existed in each and every woman on the paternal side of the family for many generations. These women struggle desparatly with conditions that get worse with age. And the last 2 generations of men on the paternal side of the family are now starting to exhibit similiar symptoms. My rigorous investigation and data collecting might be used to improve the lives of my family members (and future offspring). I can't in good conscious sit by idly and do nothing.
Most of my family members are in the science field so if I do come up with a solution it will have to be sound, repeatable and measureable.

Thank-you,

Lisa_chicago

Follow Ups:


Re: For Dr. Stoll and kmd

Posted by kmd on February 23, 2001 at 18:11:13:

In Reply to: Re: For Dr. Stoll and kmd posted by Wendy on February 23, 2001 at 14:26:42:

Hi Wendy, glad to know I helped! I was excited to hear you had your daughter get applied kinesiology with a chiro! That's a very accurate way to test in my opinion. I'd never heard of Kondremul, you say that is mineral oil? So, since she has a dairy sensitivity, she will not be able to eat milk products even though she is not lactose intolerant. I don't know of any products that have lactose but are dairy-free, do you? You may want to look up the Food Allergy Network for a complete list of all ingredients that have to be avoided - such as "whey", "casein", etc. Unfortunately, there will be no more cheese, yogurt, ice cream, etc. That is hard but she will adjust soon especially when it makes her body feel better. Take care!

Follow Ups:


Re: Dr. Stoll, I am not asking someone else to do my homework....

Posted by kmd on February 23, 2001 at 18:18:27:

In Reply to: Dr. Stoll, I am not asking someone else to do my homework.... posted by Lisa_chicago on February 23, 2001 at 14:54:25:

Lisa, first let me say that I've only skimmed some of what you've written here (so excuse me if I'm off, but I don't have a lot of time lately). If you want proof so badly, how about offering to put up the money to pay for before and after testing of some of the BB participants? For most, it is too costly which is why I am not doing it. I judge by how I feel. Scientific evidence is not the end-all an be-all of proving something. I'm sure there have been documented studies which you could easily find if you do the research. But try to be more open-minded. Things do not always fit into the "black and white" mold of scientific studies. And the expectations of the observer also affect the outcomes of the testing! Just OBSERVING something affects how it behaves, even in a test tube.




To blame almost all chronic illness on LGS is totally incomprehensible!!

Posted by Jenna on February 23, 2001 at 18:27:00:

In Reply to: Re: No that doesn't make sense to me at all posted by R. on February 22, 2001 at 20:27:06:

There are people down the board blaming schizophrenia on "brain allergies"! Unbelievable!!! I believe that LGS causes most health problems in children AND adults as much as I believe in the Tooth Fairy. I mean, that's like saying that wrinkles cause most health problems in children--it just doesn't make sense. I can see how MAYBE the LGS theory could fool people by blaming ADULT problems on it, BUT CHILDREN??? Where's the PROOF????



You're not getting my point here...

Posted by Jenna on February 23, 2001 at 18:28:51:

In Reply to: Re: No that doesn't make sense to me at all--Might not make sense but it happens. posted by B.B. on February 22, 2001 at 21:17:32:

Stoll blames almost ALL chronic illness on LGS, including in children!!!! And he has NO PROOF. It doesn't even make sense enough to put faith into play.



No Jenna, you aren't getting OUR point!

Posted by Rich on February 23, 2001 at 20:59:04:

In Reply to: You're not getting my point here... posted by Jenna on February 23, 2001 at 18:28:51:

You really need to review the work of Dr. Weston Price. He was one of the first doctor to link nutrition with degenerative disease. He noted that when parents left their traditional diets, the children were born with or developed degenerative diseases. It makes PERFECT sense that a child could be born with LGS. You probably didn't know this, but everyone has holes in their intestinal tract. What happens when things become inflammed Jenna? Give up? They enlarge! Gee, how about that! So, the holes can become bigger and inflammed and larger particles of food can get into the blood stream. Answer me this Jenna: How come people that were not born with food allergies suddenly or over a period of time develop them? How come when people remove these same foods from their diet they feel better? This is because the LGS created food allergies.

There are 2 basic ways to get LGS. One is through chronic bracing, the other is heredity brought on by dietary sabotage. THE INTESTINAL PERMEABILITY ESSAY is offered by several noted labs including Immuno Labs which has the highest standard of quality in the industry. 1 out of 3 poeple test positive Jenna. What more do you need? Where is YOUR proof? I am giving you proof. People get better when they treat the LGS. That is more proof! WHERE IS YOURS JENNA? I SEE NONE. I am 85% better at least. How are you doing these days? If you had as much sense as you come off trying to have, you would see this as plain as day. why do you think Irritable Bowel Syndrome is the most widely diagnosed digestive disorder in this country? what is your reasoning for this. I have mine Jenna and most agree. Dietary sabotage, and stress that leads to LGS!!!!!
Go ahead Jenna, give us some proof. We have been listening to you say this but you deliver nothing.

Rich



"most agree"? I think that's Jenna's point, that most DON'T agree -nt-

Posted by cd on February 24, 2001 at 00:59:22:

In Reply to: No Jenna, you aren't getting OUR point! posted by Rich on February 23, 2001 at 20:59:04:

nt



also

Posted by cd on February 24, 2001 at 01:05:00:

In Reply to: No Jenna, you aren't getting OUR point! posted by Rich on February 23, 2001 at 20:59:04:

Rich, you seem pretty knowledgable about the subject, but I think you really are missing Jenna's point. Maybe LGS exists and is as widespread as you claim it to be, but I think Jenna's point of contention is with the claim that so many problems are a result of it. Is there evidence that links LGS to any of the chronic problems discussed on this site?

Follow Ups:


Re: Bill, Thanks for the response but once again... you are NOT listening to my question DR STOLL?

Posted by Bethanne on February 24, 2001 at 03:13:56:

In Reply to: Re: Bill, Thanks for the response but once again... you are NOT listening to my question posted by Walt Stoll on February 23, 2001 at 13:46:33:

I must admit Dr Stoll on some answers you do talk mumbo jumbo. You never did answer the 3 post on RSD, so Im assuming you never heard of it. I too think the majority of illnesses are NOT cured by SR. I have never met anyone that has benefitted from this. Lisa's right, wheres the proof?



Re: For Dr. Stoll and kmd

Posted by Walt Stoll on February 24, 2001 at 09:39:07:

In Reply to: Re: For Dr. Stoll and kmd posted by Wendy on February 23, 2001 at 14:26:42:

Hi, Wendy.

I think our communications are "passing in the night". Please wait 48 hours for me to respond before reposting.

Walt

Follow Ups:


Reall Proof that LGS exists!!!!!!!!!! Read (3rd Paragraph for evidence)

Posted by Rich on February 24, 2001 at 12:06:15:

In Reply to: "most agree"? I think that's Jenna's point, that most DON'T agree -nt- posted by cd on February 24, 2001 at 00:59:22:

If you asked for proof that saturated fat CAUSES heart disease, you will definitely find studies that show both. If you asked for proof that glucosamine built cartilage, the jury would be hung. Proof of this kind is RARE in the scientific community. What's more important, is to realize the benefits people have gotten from enbracing the LGS concept. I continually ask myself why people continue to test POSITIVE for LGS through testing, and then when they are treated, the test comes back NEGATIVE within 3-6 months and most if not all of their symptoms are gone.

Many physicians are already begining to agree that LGS could be a major causative agent in arthritis and autoimmune disease. I didn't say it, they did. People are getting better when they are treated for this. How does ANYONE explain that? Is it pure luck? I really don't think so.

Jenna keeps stating that there is no proof that LGS exists. Well, here is the proof. In the newest book "I was poisoned by my body, the Oddesy of a doctor who reversed Leaky Gut syndrome", the first visual confirmation of LGS BEFORE and AFTER treatment was documented in this book. It was documented through tissue biopsy and under the microscope. You can buy the book and see for yourself. This is the first true evidence that the condition exists.

Even if Jenna STILL doesn't believe it, where is her proof that the condition DOES NOT exist? See! It goes both ways except now there is at least some evidence that points in the favor of LGS.

Rich



Re: Reall Proof that LGS exists!

Posted by B.B. on February 24, 2001 at 12:30:12:

In Reply to: Reall Proof that LGS exists!!!!!!!!!! Read (3rd Paragraph for evidence) posted by Rich on February 24, 2001 at 12:06:15:


Rich,

What's the atuhors name of that book. I'd like to try to look it up when I'm at Barns & Noble tomorrow. I'd like to be able to read Jenna's proof as well. I've spoken to one of my doctors about LGS & he advised there are studies going on now in support. Wonder how long those studies will take? Dr Stoll knew this 20 years ago.



Re: Real Proof that LGS exists!

Posted by Rich on February 24, 2001 at 12:40:40:

In Reply to: Re: Reall Proof that LGS exists! posted by B.B. on February 24, 2001 at 12:30:12:

This is usually the case when it comes to pioneers in medicine. Their work isn't taken seriously until 100 years later when the proof is finally in!

Go to Barnesnoble.com and type in Leaky Gut Syndrome in the subject and that book will come up. Then, just print it out and take it with you. It is the only book written on the subject in the year 2000.

Rich



Re: Thanks, Perhaps Jenna will do the same (sigh) nmi

Posted by B.B. on February 24, 2001 at 12:43:55:

In Reply to: Re: Real Proof that LGS exists! posted by Rich on February 24, 2001 at 12:40:40:


:-)

Follow Ups:


The burden of proof belongs to the person claiming to cure diseases with his theories!

Posted by Jenna on February 24, 2001 at 15:15:17:

In Reply to: Reall Proof that LGS exists!!!!!!!!!! Read (3rd Paragraph for evidence) posted by Rich on February 24, 2001 at 12:06:15:

Not on me, my dear.



Does that book prove that LGS is the cause of almost every chronic disease???

Posted by Jenna on February 24, 2001 at 18:36:01:

In Reply to: Reall Proof that LGS exists!!!!!!!!!! Read (3rd Paragraph for evidence) posted by Rich on February 24, 2001 at 12:06:15:

I THINK NOT~

And here's ANOTHER little tidbit for you about skepticism.

http://www.bcrecovernet.org/skeptic/why_bogus_therapies_seem_to_work.htm

I think that being a skeptic is a good thing. You don't so you don't like me. Guess I'll go cry about that....



Another question for ya Rich

Posted by Jenna on February 24, 2001 at 19:38:17:

In Reply to: Re: Real Proof that LGS exists! posted by Rich on February 24, 2001 at 12:40:40:

Found this also:
"if your intestines leaked at all, you would die of peritonitis within 24 hours!
The death mechanism of appendicitis, perforated bowel and a few other things is by definition - the leaking of the gut! The digestive bacteria are so potent they kill you if they escape the specialized environment of the intestine into the peritoneal cavity.

This is another one of those quack scares!"

How do ya like THEM apples???





Re: Another question for ya Rich

Posted by LLOYD on February 24, 2001 at 23:32:54:

In Reply to: Another question for ya Rich posted by Jenna on February 24, 2001 at 19:38:17:

Jenna, Depends upon the size of the leak. A 8 inch water line with 100 psi blows open with 4 inch hole, if you are in direct way of blow out it will hurt or harm you. Same line has tiny pinhole, will not be major problem but will be annoying. Both are leaks.

Follow Ups:


From and observer

Posted by LLOYD on February 24, 2001 at 23:55:45:

In Reply to: Re: Real Proof that LGS exists! posted by Rich on February 24, 2001 at 12:40:40:

Rich, I read this site most every day, agree with some disagree with others, just like anyone else on here, I have never posted before until now in this thread and will not again, I just like to look for info, but I can not believe you let Jenna lead you on the way she has been. You or anyone else can not find proof that and aspirin will help a headache.If it helps take it, if not, try something else. You can find a study that it helps, but not proof the way Jenna is talking about. She is leading you like a kid Rich, and the sad thing about it, she is getting kicks out of it.Stay cool and move on. Great board Dr. Stoll



Re: Another question for ya Rich - Hey, Jenna...

Posted by Swift on February 25, 2001 at 10:34:13:

In Reply to: Another question for ya Rich posted by Jenna on February 24, 2001 at 19:38:17:

LGS is all about particles leaking IN whereas something like peritonitis is about something contaminating the abdominal cavity (essentially, leaking OUT).

You can find all sorts of information to support what you want to believe. That does not make it true.

Now refresh my memory, Jenna: what exactly are your agonizing or chronic health problems? I must have missed that - first I remember of you is you jumping in to participate and being a complete ass.

Follow Ups:


Re: Does that book prove that LGS is the cause of almost every chronic disease???

Posted by Swift on February 25, 2001 at 10:48:51:

In Reply to: Does that book prove that LGS is the cause of almost every chronic disease??? posted by Jenna on February 24, 2001 at 18:36:01:

Skepticism is a great thing as long as its driven by intelligence rather than a childish desire to try to "one up" someone else. Discussion is great but when I come here to lurk about, read, research - it is sickening and funny at the same time to encounter someone with nothing better to do than than use "Quackwatch" as supporting evidence. Why don't you ask some questions to help you with your mental health problems girl?



Re: Does that book prove that LGS is the cause of almost every chronic disease???

Posted by Rich on February 25, 2001 at 16:39:53:

In Reply to: Does that book prove that LGS is the cause of almost every chronic disease??? posted by Jenna on February 24, 2001 at 18:36:01:

No Jenna, it doesn't. I am merely out to prove that the condition exists. It's only a matter of time before more evidence comes foward. Try not to cry too much when that day comes. Ok sweetheart?

Rich

Follow Ups:


Well said Swift but probably a good idea. Now Jenna will be all over YOU abou this.

Posted by Rich on February 25, 2001 at 16:42:39:

In Reply to: Re: Does that book prove that LGS is the cause of almost every chronic disease??? posted by Swift on February 25, 2001 at 10:48:51:

nmi

Follow Ups:


Re: The burden of proof belongs to the person claiming to cure diseases with his theories!

Posted by Rich on February 25, 2001 at 16:45:56:

In Reply to: The burden of proof belongs to the person claiming to cure diseases with his theories! posted by Jenna on February 24, 2001 at 15:15:17:

That was good. Did you come up with that all by yourself? How long did you sit around thinking about that one?

I don't need to prove anything to you. I have exceptional health now and that's all that matters. 5 years ago I could hardly walk because of fatigue, my joints were falling apart, and I was losing weight. Now, I have more energy than anyone I know. I am off skiing this past month. I have gained 12 pounds of solid muscle and I am in the best shape of my life. Why do I need to prove anything to you? I have RESULTS to back up my claims. That is all that is important to me. Ta-ta

Rich

Follow Ups:


Oh my god you are right!!!! What am I doing!! I am done with it. Thanks. Nmi :)

Posted by Rich on February 25, 2001 at 16:47:25:

In Reply to: From and observer posted by LLOYD on February 24, 2001 at 23:55:45:

Rich

Follow Ups:


Go away Jenna. I am done playing this game of yours. nmi

Posted by Rich on February 25, 2001 at 16:49:38:

In Reply to: Another question for ya Rich posted by Jenna on February 24, 2001 at 19:38:17:

Rich

Follow Ups:


I am currently paying for my own bloodwork....

Posted by Lisa-chicago on February 25, 2001 at 16:54:38:

In Reply to: Re: Dr. Stoll, I am not asking someone else to do my homework.... posted by kmd on February 23, 2001 at 18:18:27:

Any good sound experiment begins with research... what others have tried helps me to determine how can I improve on the tests. In other words, each researcher stands on the shoulders (figuratively) on the former researchers. I am trying to find a woman, who also has PCOS who has taken initial test results and then administered SR and then retested. This way I can have someone with whom I can exchange ideas. My other reason for taking so much time in this area is that I believe many women with PCOS will simply accept anything the Dr's tell them as a solution. - some are desparate to have kids. They don't think about the logic of the dr's solution or follow up... meaning question the Dr. When I first found out that I had PCOS I was told that I needed to take Decadron... a truly horrible drug ... in fact I did because the DR. was an authority. After taking Decadron I began feeling even worse on the meds and said is there no other solution? the Dr. said well "You can stop taking the meds and keep the PCOS sympyoms" Not a response I wanted to hear but it was enought to wake me up and make me realize that this DR. did not know what he was doing.

Lisa_chicago

Follow Ups:


Re: To blame almost all chronic illness on LGS is totally incomprehensible!! I TOTALLY AGREE WITH U JENNA!

Posted by Tina on February 26, 2001 at 03:36:25:

In Reply to: To blame almost all chronic illness on LGS is totally incomprehensible!! posted by Jenna on February 23, 2001 at 18:27:00:

nmi



Re: Reall Proof that LGS exists!!!!!!!!!! Read (3rd Paragraph for evidence) [archive in LGS]

Posted by Walt Stoll on February 26, 2001 at 10:08:25:

In Reply to: Reall Proof that LGS exists!!!!!!!!!! Read (3rd Paragraph for evidence) posted by Rich on February 24, 2001 at 12:06:15:

Thanks, Rich.

These are not MY theories, they are based on hard research throughout the world. LGS is only the cause of many conditions that conventional medicine has already had their best shot at and failed to resolve. Those make up the vast majority of those searching for answers on the internet.

To those who want to doubt, let them find their own answers. My job is only to open doors for those truly seeking alternatives. In another 20 years everyone will know. Let the doubters wait.

Namaste`

Walt



Re: Bill, Thanks for the response but once again... you are NOT listening to my question DR STOLL?

Posted by Walt Stoll on February 26, 2001 at 10:22:22:

In Reply to: Re: Bill, Thanks for the response but once again... you are NOT listening to my question DR STOLL? posted by Bethanne on February 24, 2001 at 03:13:56:

I have offered the "proof" so many times on this BB that I am getting bored with those too lazy to look up the references.

Walt

Follow Ups:


Rich ...85% Better!! Wow!!! Do you have test data, blood chemistires ekg any info would be fantastic

Posted by Lisa_chicago on February 26, 2001 at 10:31:50:

In Reply to: No Jenna, you aren't getting OUR point! posted by Rich on February 23, 2001 at 20:59:04:

Rich:

I was really excited when I read your comment. 85% better... it appears that you have some actual test results... Please share them with all of us so we can see the results. It's wonderful to see someone on the board who has actually quantified their health numbers before and after SR.

Thanks Rich!!!!!

Lisa_chicago



Hello June!!! WOuld you be willing to let me know what your condition is... what led you to SR?

Posted by Lisa_chicago on February 26, 2001 at 10:50:42:

In Reply to: Re: Lisa_chicago posted by June.one on February 22, 2001 at 20:44:56:

Hi!!!

Thanks for your response... would you let me know what your condition or health concerns were that led you to try SR?

Thanks

Lisa_chicago



Re: Hi Lisa

Posted by Kyra on February 26, 2001 at 11:54:53:

In Reply to: Rich ...85% Better!! Wow!!! Do you have test data, blood chemistires ekg any info would be fantastic posted by Lisa_chicago on February 26, 2001 at 10:31:50:

Hi Lisa,

If you'd like to trade stories and info, find me on the CAHsisters board. you have to register through egroups, but it's free.

Kyra



yes I do..........

Posted by Rich on February 26, 2001 at 12:37:28:

In Reply to: Rich ...85% Better!! Wow!!! Do you have test data, blood chemistires ekg any info would be fantastic posted by Lisa_chicago on February 26, 2001 at 10:31:50:

I have before and after of the following:

1) Comprehensive Digestive Stool Analysis

BEFORE - Candida +4
Low Butyate levels (47)
Elevated meat fibers (+1)
Severe Dysbiosis (+11)

After - Candida 0
Normal Buyrate levels
Still elevated meat fibers (+1)
Normal Dysbiosis level

* I have always had a problem with protein absorption but I am working on it. I am planning another CDSA in 3 months.

2) Intestinal permeability essay - showed major LGS
6 months later, I still have LGS but it is very minor and my symptoms have improved up to 85% because of it

3) Elisa IgG and IgE antibody test.
a. At first, showed 67 allergic foods
b. 6 months later, showed 32 allergic foods
c. 6 months later, showed 11 allergice foods.

* right now, I am strictly avoidin the 11 and I am rotating the other foods so I don't create new allergies. The LGS got better along with the food sensitivity - TEXTBOOKS RESULTS!!

4) I also had a complete blood work and hormone panel.

BEFORE - low blood sugar - 69
Low DHEA - 167
Low Total Testosterone - 400
High magnesium in blood
High levels of lead in blood

AFTER - normal blood sugar - 77
normal DHEA - 345
Normal Testosterone - 1200
normal magnesium levels
removed lead with chelation therapy

Those are all the results. I wish many people on this board could see the ACTUAL papers from the lab but I can't do that. It took me a total of 5 years to get these results so I get really ticked off when people like Jenna undermind the incredible hardship I went through. Thanks for your interest

Rich



Exactly Walt! This is what I have been saying. These theories are based on.....

Posted by Rich on February 26, 2001 at 12:40:54:

In Reply to: Re: Reall Proof that LGS exists!!!!!!!!!! Read (3rd Paragraph for evidence) [archive in LGS] posted by Walt Stoll on February 26, 2001 at 10:08:25:

hard research that, as you said, will present itself in the future. Too bad it takes so long to have something finally accepted. I feel stupid for allowing myself to be drawn into that argument. what do I care? I finally have results. That's the important thing. Thanks!

Rich

Follow Ups:


Thank-you so much for taking the time to share your results

Posted by Lisa_chicago on February 27, 2001 at 10:22:39:

In Reply to: yes I do.......... posted by Rich on February 26, 2001 at 12:37:28:

Rich:
Thank-you for sharing your test results. I know it took some time to enter that in the computer so.... Thanks!!!!!!!!!!

As far as the protein absorption... I used to have a tremendous problem with this until I found out I had the parasite citrobacter freundii. Once this was eliminated I was able to eat all types of meats. Also, a nutrionist I recently met recommended ammonium chloride. I take it just prior to eating. (In fact, ammonium chloride is mentioned in the book "The Stress of Life"... not for protein absorption but for other reasons) I have found that it helps to improve my digestion. You might want to ask a professional before taking it though.

Also, where did you have the LGS testing done? I had candida and parasite testing done by Great Smokey mountain laboratories.

How was the lead analysis completed? Via hair samples or blood samples?

Take Care Rich!!!!!

Lisa_chicago



How are you? CAH, Raises or lowers Cortisol?

Posted by Lisa_chicago on February 27, 2001 at 10:29:49:

In Reply to: Re: Hi Lisa posted by Kyra on February 26, 2001 at 11:54:53:

Kyra:

How are you? I had an opportunity to skim throught the CAH Zebra. Am I correct in saying that CAH of all types lead to lowered cortisol levels? Perhaps I'm not understanding... Can you help me out?

Lisa_chicago



Re: How are you? CAH, Raises or lowers Cortisol?

Posted by Kyra on February 27, 2001 at 12:48:42:

In Reply to: How are you? CAH, Raises or lowers Cortisol? posted by Lisa_chicago on February 27, 2001 at 10:29:49:

Hi Lisa,

I'm taking a chance and posting my email address on the board for you. CAH, to the best of my understanding, can manifest with raised cortisol levels in 11-beta hydroxylase deficiency. I believe it may also do so in 3-beta something or other deficiency. Sorry I'm not being clearer; I'm feeling pretty brain dead this morning.

Love, Kyra

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Re: Thank-you so much for taking the time to share your results

Posted by Rich on February 27, 2001 at 14:21:05:

In Reply to: Thank-you so much for taking the time to share your results posted by Lisa_chicago on February 27, 2001 at 10:22:39:

Thanks for your information. I will look into that. It may be what i need.

The lead was done via chelation treatment. It is more accurate than hair analysis

I had the LGS testing done at Great Smokies and Immuno Labs with identical results. I trust the testing.

The only pathogens that were found were:

1) Candida albicans
2) candida tropicalis = all minor infections though
3) Klebsiella
4) Strepp

take care and thanks.

Rich

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Re: To blame almost all chronic illness on LGS is totally incomprehensible!! I TOTALLY AGREE WITH U JENNA! (Don't be fooled by a troll!)

Posted by Walt Stoll on February 28, 2001 at 09:17:56:

In Reply to: Re: To blame almost all chronic illness on LGS is totally incomprehensible!! I TOTALLY AGREE WITH U JENNA! posted by Tina on February 26, 2001 at 03:36:25:

Tina,

If you have spent any time on this BB you know why so many who find their way here have problems related to LGS. Even with these self-selected cases, which many conventional docs have failed to help, less than 25% have LGS as their primary cause.

When all else has failed, what harm to try to think differently?

Walt

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Re: Hello June!!! WOuld you be willing to let me know what your condition is... what led you to SR? You betcha! Read on...

Posted by June.one on February 28, 2001 at 12:31:17:

In Reply to: Hello June!!! WOuld you be willing to let me know what your condition is... what led you to SR? posted by Lisa_chicago on February 26, 2001 at 10:50:42:

Lisa_chicago,

I've had various and sundry health issues, including a rash of unbearable migraines. Mainly, though, during and after my second pregnancy 5 years ago I felt terribly fatigued and mistakenly felt it was depression. I tried several anti-depressants and then just gave that up. I felt fatigued and there were stresses related to the family.

I saw several doctor and my 4th one (I think) told me EBV was absolutely my problem. I had constant low-grade fevers, fatigue and swollen lymph nodes - I felt so crappy I had only the hope that I would at least feel better before I died. A search on the 'net led me to this website and boy did I do a lot of reading. Years before I had read the Benson book and long before that I was taught transcendental meditation. I did not keep those things up.

Many things I read on Dr. Stoll's 'site made sense and around that time I read cover to cover "Healthy Healing" by Linda Page, N.D. I made my owm decisions and my GP, my specialist and myself all call my "condition" by different names. I was especially fascinated by information about the chemical and physiologic negative effects of stress - all kinds. I learned a lot. Just realizing I was clinching my muscles and the effect that aromas (for example) had on me enabled me to adjust my life.

So I noticed how I was bracing and noticed rage and frustration periodically, and trialed and errored my way through the possibility I might have chemical sensitivity. I read some more. So my bag is full of trying to relax, I have experimented with supplements, I've thrown out scented things in my house and let me tell you, its a lot of work. I think the right path to better health is something individualized. I'm so glad to see the bright side - that everything I've learned about SR reminded me of the intense pleasure of TM. I'd had a tendency toward tenseness and being high strung starting long ago. Now I'm seeing an osteopath for some chronic back pain and he used the term "bracing" himself and described me as being pretty tightly wound.

I'm so much better than a year and more ago; I admit its a combination of things, but the relaxation and actually the realization of my need to chill out is, in my opinion, the most important of the things I've done to improve. When I started out I was unable to work, rested a lot, so I might as well have added the relaxation whether it helped or not. Walt's urging to verify success with the SR is good advice; I knew the feeling I would have from past experiences.

Looks like I'm a wanna be novelist! Sorry to go on so long. I think its really commendable that you are quite the seeker.

June



Re: Hello June!!! WOuld you be willing to let me know what your condition is... what led you to SR? You betcha! Read on... (Archive in SR.)

Posted by Walt Stoll on March 02, 2001 at 09:42:32:

In Reply to: Re: Hello June!!! WOuld you be willing to let me know what your condition is... what led you to SR? You betcha! Read on... posted by June.one on February 28, 2001 at 12:31:17:

Thanks, June.

Your testimonial will help those with truly open minds.

Namaste`

Walt

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