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Dr. Stoll, I have read all the articles on this problem. My daughter was found to be impacted by a physician at the Virginia Beach Hospital and he went in and "cleaned her out" using his fingers. That was two months ago. Since then she has not had a bm on her own. Her pediatrician had us do a Fleet enema the following day and then use a suppository the day after. It has been miserable. She has now been on Milk of Magnesia for two months and all she has gotten is diaper rash from the runs. We started her on Friday Oct 13th with the mineral oil (2tsp) and are getting about 9 grams of fiber (metamucil cookies and powder) into her daily. My question is, she has not had a bm yet. It is now Monday. She strains to hold it in and has staining in her diapers. Should we give her the Milk of Magnesia on top, give her an enema, or just hold out since sooner or later the oil and Metamucil should work. Its driving us crazy watching her strain to hold it in. Should we have given her an enema before we started your treatment? Please help. How long is it before your treatment at least starts to work on average if there is such a thing as average with this problem.
Thanks in advance for your help.
In Reply to: withholding for 2 1/2yr old. posted by Bob Webb on October 16, 2000 at 16:54:41:
Hi Bob,
You are NOT alone. There are 2 other parents currently on this BB struggling with the same problem. Having been through it, (yes, even the impaction and the trip to the ER for this), I KNOW how awful this is and believe me I feel for you and the child.
Please scroll down through the posts a bit and see what you can learn from the discussions currently ongoing. We've been discussing dietary manipulation which may be important for your child as well. Does she consume milk and dairy? Wheat? Also, be sure to read the archives if you have not already.
As far as whether or not you should give her an enema... I'm not a doctor, but I see no reason (except that she may associate the enema with this whole ongoing traumatic experience) why you should not do so one more time if needed until the MO and Metamucil begin to work. I would think they will work within 3 days max, but that is again a guess on my part.
Once the MO and Metamucil get going (and don't ever miss a dose for a long time), she won't be able to withhold any longer, and she will begin to trust that BM's don't hurt anymore. In other words when things begin to go really well for her, don't let up on the treatment for quite a long time, maybe even a year.
In Reply to: Re: withholding for 2 1/2yr old. posted by kmd on October 16, 2000 at 17:23:51:
I appreciate you getting back to me. I really don't want to give her the enema. She has just had too much intrusive treatment to date. Won't the combination of MO and Metamucil work without the enema? If so, in what time frame would you estimate?
In Reply to: Re: withholding for 2 1/2yr old. posted by Bob on October 16, 2000 at 17:46:39:
Hi Bob,
Yes, it will work. I'm not certain how long it takes though, and I would think it varies according to an individual's "transit time" as well as the degree to which she is withholding. Check your bottles of MO and Metamucil and see what they say about how long. That may give you a rough idea. As I said before, my guess is that it probably wouldn't take more than 3 days.
Perhaps you can write again in a few days and tell us how she is doing?
In Reply to: withholding for 2 1/2yr old. posted by Bob Webb on October 16, 2000 at 16:54:41:
Bob,
I am going through the same thing w/ my one year old. I posted some messages earlier on the board. I will be giving my daughter her first dose of MO tonight at bedtime. I would really like to know how your daughter does since we are doing the same thing. I hope we both have success with this because we have tried almost everything else.
Good luck.
Lynn
In Reply to: Re: withholding for 2 1/2yr old. posted by kmd on October 16, 2000 at 20:01:41:
Thank God, she had a bm tonight......huge. It was as big as any adults. She is worn out, but she did it without the Milk of Magnesia and without any intrusive help. We are going to stick with the MO and Metamucil. I will keep you informed. She had to push somewhat to get out what she did. She cried and didn't want to do it but calmed down right after so it couldn't have hurt as much as holding it in must. Thanks for your advice. 3 days is about right for the first movement at least in her case.
In Reply to: reply to kmd posted by Bob Webb on October 16, 2000 at 20:19:53:
Hi Bob,
YAY! I know the relief you are feeling tonight is as great as her own. I know just what you mean about the huge-sized BM's being a shocking thing to see coming from a small child. Hang in there, keep looking for the underlying cause to this whole thing, and eventually you will find this all to be a memory. Just keep up the mineral oil and metamucil in the meantime. Do you have any advice to offer others on the best method you have found to get her to take these two things? I never had any luck getting my son to take either one of them, but that could be because of his autism and his heightened senses.
In Reply to: Re: reply to kmd - YAY!!!! posted by kmd on October 16, 2000 at 21:17:11:
As my wife says, it ain't easy to get them to take the oil or Metamucil. So far the best way for the oil is to put it on wheat bread,then mix regular butter with prune butter on top. The bread soaks in the oil and she doesn't taste it. We put the oil in the center of the bread, I put some on mine too in case she wants Daddy's. The reason for the center is because she sometimes won't eat the crust. It also works on toast, covering it with butter. As for the Metamucil, thats tougher, it tastes pretty grainy. We got her Metamucil crackers and cookies. They have apple and cinnamon flavored. Make sure the young one has plenty of water though because it can bulk up and possibly cause choking. We also have bought every grain cereal known to mankind, raisins, Fig newtons, oat bran and of course white wheat (high fiber) bread. We also have to be very sneaky, at this age they are smarter than we think and watch every thing we do because she has been used to us giving her "cherry drink" (Milk of Magnesia) which tastes absolutely horrible. Metamucil also comes in a smooth texture, not as grainy as the regular. It takes more but isn't as harsh. It comes in regular and orange flavored which our daughter hates (at least for now). We are also changing our diets to get more fiber so that hopefully, she will follow Mommy and Daddy's lead. If anyone has any ideas of what to use instead of Metamucil, let me know because that is the tough one to get her to take.
In Reply to: Re: reply to kmd - YAY!!!! posted by Bob Webb on October 16, 2000 at 21:52:50:
Oh, my wife reminded me of another way we get her to take the oil. We drip it over hot popcorn. The popcorn absorbs the oil and she seems to love it. Also the popcorn has some good fiber to fight constipation.
In Reply to: Re: withholding for 2 1/2yr old. posted by Lynn on October 16, 2000 at 20:09:25:
Lynn, good luck. It is very hard to watch your child struggle with this affliction. She grabs hold of our hands or a table, her face turns red, she is sweating and shaking trying to hold it in. We gave her her first dose of mineral oil on Thursday, missed Friday (we are weak) because we went out, started all over on Saturday and tonight she had her first bm. It took 3 days, and it was huge, but she did it with out Milk of Magnesia which we have been using for almost 3 mos. per our pediatrician. All she got was diarrhea and terrible diaper rash. It didn't make her go on her own at all. If you read my responce to kmd in answer to Yea,I put in some suggestions that we have been trying for the past few days that seem to work. Also, the oil will mix with ice cream and my daughter took it the first night that way. You can also drizzle it over popcorn. You have to be creative (sneaky) because they are very smart and are watching what you give them. Please stay in touch we need all the support as I'm sure you do. Good luck again.
In Reply to: Re: reply to kmd - YAY!!!! posted by Bob Webb on October 16, 2000 at 21:52:50:
Do some reading, PLEASE, please! She's heading for trouble, please don't keep feeding her all that wheat and oats and corn! Fruits and vegetables and lotso f water would do her so much good, with the fiber and bulkk.
All that stuff means bowel disease when she gets older? Do you know about irritable bowel and chrone's disease? Read about it if you love her and want to do good for her!!!!
In Reply to: Re: withholding for 2 1/2yr old. posted by Lynn on October 16, 2000 at 20:09:25:
All of a sudden I thought I'm an idiot. I e-mailed you with how we are getting the MO down my 2 1/2 year old, not great for a 1 year old. Try mixing it with the baby food, it really doesn't taste that bad (not great either) but your baby ought to take it easily. Also the Metamucil comes in fine grain which if you buy orange flavored and mix it with half orange juice and half water should be okaly. Remember to continue to shake the mixture as your baby drinks it, it settles to the bottom and won't get in her. All the best, we're in this together.
In Reply to: All that wheat and corn is hurting her !!!! posted by worried! on October 16, 2000 at 23:16:41:
We are not just overdosing her on the fiber. Believe me. We give her her normal food. We just want to make sure she has some fiber. She is very picky and the reason we bought the stuff was to give her some choices. She never wants anything that is good for her. Instead of Candy for snacks, we are trying to come up with a healthy trail mix type of snack. Thanks for your concern, I really appreciate all the support.
In Reply to: Re: All that wheat and corn is hurting her !!!! posted by Bob Webb on October 16, 2000 at 23:21:46:
I really, really mean that it's time to rethink the problem, she has been withholding or constipated, whatever. That's FROM the wheat and corn, and YEAH that's what she'll wantto eat becuase she is slowly getting addicted, no kidding! I mean it!! Giving her more is just helping her get more of a problem. and if you add the oil you can get her to go, but it keeps hurting if it's slow and large and getting stuck because it's all wheat and corn, sticking her up. Even if you do give her other food.
She doesn't have leaky gut now, but she's on that tract! It's from doing this all your life, I know! That's why I'm trying to tell you, I am dead serious, it's no joke. Thanks for listening.
Somebody please come in and back me up here? Give him some authorities to read up? Walt?
In Reply to: Ok, but she's a little one, hang on -- Walt?? Somebody? LGS posted by worried! on October 16, 2000 at 23:40:35:
Hi...I am the mom....
I understand what you are getting at, and I really appreciate your warning. However, my daughter has always had a pretty good diet. Like all parents, we wish she would eat more fruit and vegetable, however, we are not overdosing on fiber. We simply bought a few cereals in order to find one that she likes best, and to offer other alternatives to snacks as opposed to a chocolate chip cookie. We also still believe her problem started when she was taken to ER. She had a case of constipation for the first time ever (didn't go for about 4 days). We called the doctor's office to find out what was best to give her. We were already planning to use mineral oil. Instead we were told to take her to the ER in case of a bigger problem. She was not vomiting nor was she bleeding. Immediately, the doctor said she should be disimpacted. We dread the day we let him do it. Since that day, the problem began. Even constipated, she was at least trying to go, not hold it in. We wonder why the doctors didn't at least tell us to try milk of magnesia first since that is all that they have been telling us now! Anger is not even close to how we feel.
So believe me, we will make sure we do not overdose her on fiber. Now, if you can tell me how to get her to eat spinach.........
In Reply to: Ok, but she's a little one, hang on -- Walt?? Somebody? LGS posted by worried! on October 16, 2000 at 23:40:35:
I have just been reading some other posts and what the causes of the initial constipation can be. Without a doubt, my daughter's initial bout came from too much dairy. She loves cheese and I am sure we let her overindulge right before she became constipated. Question is, since she was never constipated like that before, does that necessarily mean that she cannot have dairy or cheese ever? She was doing fine until then, and we still believe that her "trauma" in the ER caused her pain and subsequently fear of going. A balanced healthy diet goes without saying, but do you have any thoughts on this psychological aspect of the problem? Thanks for your input.
In Reply to: Re: withholding for 2 1/2yr old.Lynn posted by Bob Webb on October 16, 2000 at 23:17:28:
Bob,
I'm glad your little one went. Today, I will try more metamucil. I didn't realize how thick it can get. I will try your suggestion about putting the MO on toast. I know how hard it is to get kids to eat good food. I sympathize w/ you. We are going through the same thing with both our 2 year old and 1 year old. Thankfully, the 2 year old doesn't have the w/holding problem! Tell me again the amounts of MO and Metamucil you've been using, please? Thanks.
Lynn
In Reply to: withholding for 2 1/2yr old. posted by Bob Webb on October 16, 2000 at 16:54:41:
Hi, Bob.
A good cleaning out several times (laxatives and enemas), while you are starting the MO and metamucil, would be helpful. You will know when that is no longer necessary.
Let us know how she does.
Walt
In Reply to: Thanks, Bob! posted by Lynn on October 17, 2000 at 08:13:38:
We are using 2-3 tsp of MO and about 11 to 6 to 7 grams of Metamucil per day. The fine grain.
In Reply to: Re: Ok, but she's a little one, hang on -- Walt?? Somebody? LGS posted by Irene Webb on October 17, 2000 at 00:25:34:
Hi, Irene.
The first thing is to assure that there will be no more painful movements REGARDLESS OF THE CAUSE. THEN you need to start looking for causes and, statistically, caseine is IT. Just remember, when you start testing for caseine you have to TOTALLY eliminate every trace of caseine to find out if it is contributing. Wheat is the second most common cause.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Ok, but she's a little one, hang on -- Walt?? Somebody? LGS posted by Walt Stoll on October 17, 2000 at 09:04:30:
Walt, prior to Friday, we had no wheat bread in the house, cereals full of sugar and my daughters favorite meal was Chocolate shake and fries from McDonalds. We are not trying to over compensate for her constipation. We are using the MO and Metamucil per your directions. Cassie is very picky and we try to get her to eat her vegetables and meat. But it is a battle of wills as you know. One of the reasons we bought the wheat is because of the difficulty of getting Metamucil in a 2 1/2 year old. Each dose contains 3.4 grams of fiber. We were trying to supplement that dose with other grains of fiber, not put her on a fiber diet. She had her first bm last night after 3 days. It was pretty solid to say the least. I noticed this morning that even though she is still withholding, she had a stainer in her diaper but it was soft and a little oily. It had not been that way in the past so I guess the mineral oil is working. If we could get her to drink 8oz per day of just the metamucil that would be great, but she really doesn't like the taste. She drinks tons of water daily, her favorite drink. So with all this going on, we are trying to get her on better all around eating habits than this ex- Marine and his Russian wife ever had.
In Reply to: Re: reply to kmd - YAY!!!! posted by kmd on October 16, 2000 at 21:17:11:
This seems to be working. She had a second bm after last night this morning. She struggled with a stainer, then about 1/2 hour later, all of a sudden I smelled that old smell and thought she had another stainer, but I didn't see her struggle. Low and behold, a nice oily normal bm. She appeared not even to notice it. I have been with her all morning and she didn't even struggle this time. My stomach even feels better. Will keep in touch.
In Reply to: Re: withholding for 2 1/2yr old. (Archive in constipation.) posted by Walt Stoll on October 17, 2000 at 08:58:41:
Walt, in talking to kmd, we were going to give her a cleaning last night (Mon) but low and behold she had a huge bm. She had been on the oil and Met since Saturday. We kept up with the MO and Metamucil last night and she had a normal slightly oily bm this morning. The most important thing is I never saw her struggle with it. She had struggled earlier this morning with a small oily stainer, holding it in, but I was with her and there was no struggle to hold in the bm, she acted as if nothing was going on. The only way I knew was from that old tell-tale smell. I thought it was another stainer......not a healthy looking regular sized bm. Will keep you up to date on progress as the months go on. Want to get this cleared up before we start potty training. Don't think she needs the extra pressure. Thanks for all the help on your site. Everyone is very caring. To be honest, I'm not all hot on pediatricians lately. They haven't helped at all, but the holpital visit was the worst. I recommend that everyone with this problem AT LEAST LOOK AT OTHER OPTIONS before going to the hospital for the intrusive options they offer.
In Reply to: Thanks, Bob! posted by Lynn on October 17, 2000 at 08:13:38:
Lynn, FYI after 3 days of with holding not having a single bm since we took her off the Milk of Magnesia and put her on the MO and Metamucil (as much as was possible, which was maybe a tsp) she had one major bm yesterday evening as i mentioned to you and 4 regular ones today. I'm sure that at least two of them were trapped by the one she had last night. But the other two were healthy somewhat oily looking bms. She also was not straining by the middle of today. At one point she kind of twisted her face up then walked over to my wife and said change diaper. She had none of the sweaty, shaking crying bms we have lived with for the past 3 months. I know its too early to tell, but she doesn't so far have the diahrea she had with the Milk of Magnesia causing terrible diaper rash (this was almost daily). Again its only been a few days but it seems to be working.
In Reply to: Re: Ok, but she's a little one, hang on -- Walt?? Somebody? LGS posted by Bob Webb on October 17, 2000 at 09:21:27:
Hi, Bob.
You might as well solve another problem while you are at it.
When did it become standard for the child of this age to dictate what she will eat? This is the first indication of her running the household so long as she lives in it.
It is the parents' responsibility to TELL her what to eat. NO child wil willingly starve herself to the level where it would damage her health. It is your responsibility to only offer her wholessome foods. When she gets hungry enough, she will eat. Remember, one of the most common causes of death in children is their drinking kerosene, gasoline, lye, etc. Taste has nothing to do with it---as you say, it is a test of wills.
No one forces you to buy the junk she "likes".
IF you stick by your guns, she will start eating good stuff in about a week (depending on how stubborn she is).
If you give up just once in the meantime, she might go for a month. Do not srart this unless you are determined to win and change her diet habits to a healthy diet. Her bowel problem is at least partly due to her deciding what she will eat instead of your telling her what she will eat. Her body is smarter than she is at this age and it is you who need to listen to its messages.
Would you let her go play in the traffic just because she insisted? How about when she is a teenager. I am sure you can think up some scary scenarios. If you do not start now, you will be VERY sorry later.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: withholding for 2 1/2yr old. (Archive in constipation.) posted by Bob Webb on October 17, 2000 at 10:09:20:
Thanks, Bob.
You are learning. NOw if only others would learn from your experiences before putting THEIR child through the allopathic wringer.
Walt
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